Rincewind

[hijack]Heh, this is completely off topic but a few months ago I was taking a corporate "feel-good" personal development course that was supposed to bolster my public speaking and presentation skills.

One of the exercises was to stand up in front of the class and give a five minute speech being a proponent of one side of a controversial subject. The audience (other class members) were to roleplay questions based on the character card they were given.

A lot of topics were covered and a lot of the subjects I wanted to use were taken. I was near the end of the talks so I was rapidly running out of material to 'discuss.'

Not taking this class very seriously I decided I would go balls out and be a proponent of some outlandish idea/ideology, and believe it or not I chose forced sterilization.

For five minutes of talking and five minutes of answering questions I was the biggest a-hole in the eyes of everyone in that room. It was awesome. People gave up on roleplaying questions and just went for the jugular, "You can't be serious!" etc. I kept really calm and cool. Went over the program and the role the federal government would play. I went over the testing process, the sterilization process, sucess and failure rates, potential socio-economic implications and other really wack-o aspects of the program really enthusiastically and seriously. I even acted hurt when the questions started coming in and it was aparent the audience didn't like the controversial subject I chose.

At the end of my ten minutes, I came out of character and chuckled at everyone who thought I was serious. The relief from the room was palatable.

A few of the guys after me were aparently just as bored with the class as I was and came up with some other outstanding topics to cover, but after me people were expecting anything.

The best part is I have it all on tape

[/hijack]

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xTYBALTx

Rincewind, now you've experienced a small part of how I always live my life! Except for that I rarely argue in favor of stuff I don't actually believe in. ;] It's fun being the a-hole. Gotta turn it off at work though.

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DudeMan

while we are at this game, how about a $50 fine for all those health concious parents who give their kids diet soda, insectacide treated food products which now is about all of them.... unless you buy from a brown cardigan wearing girl with a flower in her hair called i dont know haze.... or some other hippy crap.

cancer is caused by car fumes, sweeteners, electric pylons, phone masts, microwaves, natural causes, insectocide, not saying we should actively encourage somking, but i agree with cing, if you are treating a symptom of something you know the cause of, then you are an idiot. to put it frankly, if we are so worried about those poor unfortunate chilldren there is a damn site more to do than slapping a cash fine on someone... 1st symptom, bad parenting, 2nd, smoking is legal

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Sirusblk

Hey Cing is entitled to his opinions as are we all. None of us have the same stance on every subject (god, I sure hope not!). Try looking at this as really just a way to get opposing views, much like a well rounded education. I certainly don't expect to change anybody's mind. I do however feel neccesary to throw in my concerns as well as hear those of others

My point is, what's greater? The child's right to a healthy life? Or the parent's right to privacy? I think of it very much like Issac Astimov's rules of robotics. The most serious law, one protecting the human being of his life, being first and everything else is secondary by comparison.

If you wanna hear my allusion here it is: If a terrorist walks thru our countries with a gun to one of our native country's civilian's head, what would you want? Would you want the safety of that hostage or the terrorist? Lets assume that for the sake of argument that the terrorist is also from the same country. They both have the same rights, right? But the civilian's life comes first. Even if that terrorist has a right to a strole in the park, he loses it when somebody's life comes into play. That's my feeling anyways...

-Sirusblk

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Hayttrain

It is a good point Sirus, but look at this way to. What does each individual right equal? So are you saying the smallest threat to a child's health should be combated with the total forfeiture of any right the parent has? It is not a foregone conclusion that the child is going to grow up sickly, or grow up to get lung cancer, chronic sinus infections, or whatever have you if Mom/Dad smokes a cig while driving the kids to school. Is it bad for them? Well I am not a doctor, but I am guessing it’s not going to help your child become a marathon runner. The thing is at what point does passing legislation like this just border on being absolutely ludicrous? I have a friend that is a social worker and she has sat there crying about children that the government will not take away from their drugged out abusive parents. Point is, when the government can't even take care of the big problems concerning child welfare what right do they have to come attack good parents who are using substances that are not illegal and there only sin is smoking a cig in their child's presence. I think we can all agree there are bigger problems concerning children than parents smoking around them in their car.

-- Hayt

DudeMan

agreed, my parents fostered kids ever since i was about 5 and i have seen and heard some sick **** with what people do to kids, charitiies such as the NSPCC, and other childrens charities are telling us that chilldren are still being forced into prostitution by their parents, and worse... now my dad smoked when i was a child, and i have no breathing, sinus, or any other problems associated with that at all, niether does my borther, or any of the foster chilldren to pass through our house, and he used to smoke, in the living room, car, etc etc... he even smoked cigars for a while.

i am not going to say my dad was a bad parent because of this, as will i hold judgement on most people today, because it all comes down to education, something the government would rather (it seems) forget about in the persiut of cash from people, who smoke a legal substance in their own cars. the government is on tricky ground here arguing the chilldren dont understand and cant choose line, because what are they saying about adults. that they can choose and that because they are aweare of the risks its ok.... because if that is the case, then i should be able to do a line at the club, pop some E, eat my favorite Magic mushroom smoke weed, etc etc, because i know the after efeects and possible consequences....

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Rincewind

Here's yet another argument against pregnant women smoking:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0124143754.htm

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CingularDuality

I'm often less than forthcoming when I'm making a point, but my chronic sinus infections plagued me twenty years before I started smoking...


THIS is my point. Where does it end? And just how much are we really protecting the children, anyway?

Well, perhaps that's why we'll not see eye to eye. I happen to think that there are many things more important than human life.

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Rincewind

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~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

leejo

"I was advised by my doctor to take up smoking. He said I wasn't getting enough tar."
--Steve Martin

Sirusblk

If you don't mind me asking what is more important than human life?

Human rights are to improve the quality of living. I personally think it should be the child's right to choose to be surrounded by his or her parents smoking or not. The thing is I believe the child should be educated on the risks as well as not feel any need to make a biased answer to appease the parents. The thing is this is obviously not a viable solution. But my point is: How does the rights of the parent out weight that of the child's? If you can honestly answer with a serious answer that holds weight, I'll concede to you on that point.


-Sirusblk

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Kerostasis

War, as a concept, is based around the idea that Liberty can be more important than Life. That, or personal gain for the attacking nation. One or the other.

The point is there is plenty of historical precedent for Life not being our #1 priority. Its certainly pretty far up the list, but sometimes it has to take the #2 slot.

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CingularDuality

Oh, man, tons of things... If those two annoying criminal attorneys that have those late night commercials were about to die, and so were the last two white rhinos on earth, and you could only save the lawyers or the rhinos, I'd certainly not choose the humans.

If someone comes into my home and threatens my family with bodily harm, I'll certainly be considering ending a human life.

And, in this case, freedom is more important to me than the potential health benefits of this silly legislation.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
How do the parents' rights outweigh the children's rights? That's an easy one. Just like with homework, being spanked, having to do chores, and deciding what they can wear, the parent is the legal guardian of the child. The parent is an adult. The child does what the parent says.

Obviously, in this situation, the law is trying to correct a situation that usually only occurs when there is a lapse in the judgment of the adult. But where do we draw the line? Will the next law incarcerate parents that don't put shoes on their kids when they go outside to play? Will I be thrown in jail because my kid fell out of a tree and there was no harness or belay on him? I read once that jogging beside a moderately busy street for one half hour (they defined it by the number of vehicles traveling on it per minute, but I forget the number.) does close to the same damage to the lungs as smoking a PACK of cigarettes. Where are the cries to ban motor vehicles near schools?

Look, there are all kinds of hazards that kids must endure while growing up. It's part of growing up. I think it's disgusting for a parent to smoke in an enclosed vehicle with a young child that is unable to roll down his/her window for ventilation. I don't see a problem with a parent lighting up and cracking the window so that the smoke will be sucked out while driving with his 17 year old kid. The turning point on whether I personally disprove is somewhere in the middle there... But regardless of my personal views, the government has absolutely zero business in passing this law. It's almost as bad as forcing business owners to ban smoking on their own property!

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Sirusblk

Ok, you've brought up a very good point and therefor as promised I concede. However your examples show exchanging one life for another, and while you might not save the two lawyers, others might (I'm not saying I would though).

I think we can all agree though that smoking in the presence of a child is bad parenting. Not only is it giving off ill effects but it's not a great example either I'm not majorly concerned about 17 year olds, but 10 and under is more than enough to cause me some concern, a baby even more so.

-Sirusblk

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Buccaneer

Had my first fag (thats a cigarette in case any Yanks are reading) when I was 12.

Started smoking full time since the age of 15, I'm now 47.

I have two daughters, and used to do what Trooper has pointed out. Smoke while I was driving, with my two girls in their baby seats, strapped to the back seat. (I never did it with the window closed though, always used to crack it open - not (on reflection) that it would have made any difference).

I gave the ciggies up a 1 year, 2 weeks ago this Thursday. Best thing I ever did. And even though I smoked for 32 years, because I wanted to give up, I did. Funnily enough, I only needed the patches for 2 weeks.

If I can do it (and I was pushing 40 a day), anyone can.

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