The New Global Warming Thread

[leejo]

Right. And have you read their work? Just asking, since you're scoffing.

Also, the bar seems to shirt by the moment here. Have I said that "humans have in no way" contributed to climate change? I don't believe I have. I do wonder if humans can in any meaningful way hold back the seas should they decide to rise or keep the icebergs from melting if the sun decides to enter an extra-active cycle.

[marstein]

Maybe you could start by explaining what hicking in nature is. Do you mean hiking or getting busy with a lonely redneck in the woods behind the barn?

If you mean hiking in nature, then no you shouldn't have to pay for that. If you mean hiking on someone's property, then you are trespassing and there are laws that have been around forever that allow them to prosecute you. If you mean hicking in the woods behind the barn, don't ask don't tell.

Yes, hiking - sigh. I would not say that there have been laws around forever that prevent hiking on someone's property. For certain the native americans didn't have them, and where I grew up (Bavaria, Germany) there is a law that gives anyone access to the forest even if it is in private hands.

I think that as a society you try to create a nice world for all people. Making it nice just for a few and then arguing with "a market" that naturally regulates things while in reality a lot of people fall by the wayside is not nice. While I wouldn't want to see communism, I'd like to have rules so that the weak are protected and the strong contribute in the right way. Then society could move into the right direction.

[marstein]

A couple of scientists...have recently published research concerning the effects of climate change on the arctic environment. They are alarmed, as are their colleagues.

And from what one hears there are a great many scientists who think there is a big chance of that. Who in their right mind would dismiss all that and do nothing to avoid disaster?

[Nikolas]

Hiking in nature... for free???

Someone call Yellowstone National Park, I want all of my money back! It costs over $100 per year for access!

And all this time I should've been getting it for free?? Or, is that National Park run by the evil "free marketeers"?

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone's paying for it somewhere, whether through taxes or whatever. Nothing's free.

[leejo]

I'd like to have rules so that the weak are protected and the strong contribute in the right way. Then society could move into the right direction.

I like that too. That's the purpose of the bill of rights. De Tocqueville wrote about the "tyranny of the majority" extensively. I submit that in a democracy, the private land or business owner is extremely weak relative to the voting public wielding the power of the state, hence the wisdom of protecting his or her rights.

[AMosely]

Right. And have you read their work? Just asking, since you're scoffing.

I've met both of them, which is why they are somewhat near the top of my head at the present time, and yes, I have also read some of their work. I hope that you do not take me as conducting this debate from an armchair. I think the number of my posts on the matter would indicate my passion for it.

Also, the bar seems to shirt by the moment here. Have I said that "humans have in no way" contributed to climate change? I don't believe I have. I do wonder if humans can in any meaningful way hold back the seas should they decide to rise or keep the icebergs from melting if the sun decides to enter an extra-active cycle.

You may not have, but my comment was posted in response to the claim (posted in this thread) that there is some chance that humans have had zero (or in no way) impact on the Earth's climate. I disagree with that claim.

Regarding some of the comments about hiking in nature, you need to first decide what you mean by the term 'nature.' National parks are far from natural, and the reason admission is charged is because the government has not adequately funded the parks for quite some time. In fact, most national parks (such as Acadia here in Maine) have private non profits (in Acadia's case, Friends of Acadia) who host fundraisers and volunteer efforts to maintain the park and its facilities so that people like the elderly, handicapped and very young can also experience and enjoy it. It's unfortunate that the government places such natural treasures so low on the funding scale that some of them have to close their gates to the very public they were created to serve.

True, unspoiled wilderness is becoming harder and harder to find in America, but it can still be found. If you haven't ever experienced it, I urge you to do so while you can. The persuit of land preservation for unspoiled, public use is a worthwhile and noble activity. Seek out the groups who do it, support them, and enjoy your 'free lunch' - because there still is such a thing when it comes to enjoying this planet.

[marstein]

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone's paying for it somewhere, whether through taxes or whatever. Nothing's free.

You never heard about "the best things in life are free"?

The best things in life are free
But you can give them to the birds and bees
I want money

(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)

You love gives me such a thrill
But your love won't pay my bills
I want money

(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)

Money don't get everything it's true
But what it don't get I can't use
I want money

(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)

I want money
I want lots of money
In fact I want so much money
Give me your money
Just give me money

[marstein]

I do wonder if humans can in any meaningful way hold back the seas should they decide to rise or keep the icebergs from melting if the sun decides to enter an extra-active cycle.

What we are talking about is the very real possibility that humans significantly contribute to climate change. Once Greenland's ice slides into the sea or we are all forced to move to the north pole it will be too late, but maybe now if we cut down on wasting our resources (which would be a good idea no matter what) we can head that off.

[Kerostasis]

So, by extension I guess we aren't talking about the equally real possibility that humans don't significantly contribute to climate change? Again though, you should really be asking about "significant detrimental" climate change, to be more specific. And that's still largely an unknown.

[marstein]

Kerostasis - it is not an "equally real possibility" that humans don't contribute. A majority of scientists agree that humans are neck deep involved in this. The three guys that the oil industry and the politians paid by them are parading around don't count quite that much.

[leejo]

Kerostasis - it is not an "equally real possibility" that humans don't contribute. A majority of scientists agree that humans are neck deep involved in this. The three guys that the oil industry and the politians paid by them are parading around don't count quite that much.

Name 3 of those scientists without using the internet, Marstein.

[AMosely]

So, by extension I guess we aren't talking about the equally real possibility that humans don't significantly contribute to climate change? Again though, you should really be asking about "significant detrimental" climate change, to be more specific. And that's still largely an unknown.

No, some of us (not me) are certainly talking about the possibility that humans don't significantly contribute to climate change. In fact, that's really what's at the heart of this debate, is it not? My argument is that if we contribute anything at all, it is logically and ethically superior to work to reduce that contribution even it that reduction carries an economic cost. I realize that many people disagree with this argument, but there it is.

[Silas Ender]

The three guys that the oil industry and the politians paid by them are parading around don't count quite that much.

What about all the politicians and scientists that stand to, and are supported by groups that stand to, profit hugely from pushing global warming and significant human fault as fact? I don't think they count much myself. What's the difference? So, is your side speaking truth mandated by the god of climate change or something?

And can you PROVE that a MAJORITY of scientists(It's laughable to use such a general term. Does that mean the medical officers at the FBI HQ here in D.C. count, too? ) agree that humans contribute significantly to climate change? And I mean without taking a quote from some insanely presumptuous article off the internet or out of a magazine.

[Kerostasis]

My argument is that if we contribute anything at all, it is logically and ethically superior to work to reduce that contribution even it that reduction carries an economic cost. I realize that many people disagree with this argument, but there it is.

That requires the assumption that any impact we have must necessarily be a negative impact. What if we impact the environment in a positive way? Would you still assert that we should minimize that impact?

[marstein]

Name 3 of those scientists without using the internet, Marstein.

No can do. At my age the memory goes and I was never good with names. But there was an article in GEO a german magazine about 600 scientists from 40 nations collectively saying that climate change is happening, it is man-made and that it is going to continue.
Of course you can poo-poo that and we can go on forever, but I think it would not be wise to go on and do nothing. In the worst case humanity become energy efficient, we are not dependent on oil any more and cut green house gases. We would all get a little poorer.
In the best case we avert a global meltdown, catastrophes and the subsequent war over resources.

That our actions have a positive impact on the climate? What are you smoking? Spend a while in China, shovel the sand from your doorstep every morning, buy your asthma-ridden family new mouth protection and watch one coal-fired power plant go up every week.