Army ROTC - Page 2

**Ferris Bueller** · 02-17-2007, 02:28 AM

If I might ask, what scares you? It's not really a life changing experience, no more than going to work for a new company would be.

aculle01 · 02-17-2007, 10:50 AM

Now, just last year I finished Navy ROTC and received my commission. I haven't looked back since. Somethings may be different between branches and each unit can set their own SOPs (this can also change from CO to CO) but the underlying theme is the same no matter where you go. Sure you have some physical fitness requirements and maybe a few extra classes but your #1 priority is getting good grades. The Army, Navy and AF all expect your school work to come first. You are no good to them if you don't graduate. That being said, ROTC really does not take up that much of your time nor gets in the way of having a good time. Obviously, doing somethign stupid has greater repercussions for those in ROTC than those outside of the program but you can definitely still have a normal college life, believe me. I thought of it as having to take an extra course (for the Navy it actually does require taking extra courses). You can get yourself in trouble if you take it too seriously (not focusing on your studies or enjoying college) or not seriously enough (drawing the wrong type of attention from you superiors), the idea is to find a happy medium where it shows that you care but you aren't putting too much energy into it. I can say I have been on both sides of this spectrum. I have spread myself too thin and was unable to keep up with my school work and I have done some stupid things. Both gave me a bad rep for having the tools but not using them. Once I found the happy place, I have been having a great time. In the military you work hard and you play even harder.

As far as life changing, I definitely believe I am better off having completed NROTC than if I went through college as a regular student. It's a guaranteed job that pays $40,000 (Base pay + BAH + BAS) before taxes and provides both medical and dental for free. This is even sweeter if you end up in the specialty you wanted. With the exception of the grief caused by my senior thesis, I was able to enjoy my senior year without having to worry about the next step. As soon as I completed my oath I was getting paid. Now, as it's been mentioned, you will owe the Army some years for them footing the bill so there is a downside if you end up not liking it. But how many people are able to find their dream jobs out of college and/or don't have to worry about paying back student loans?

Again, I am in the Navy so I don't know exactly how it goes with the Army but I have a good friend who went through AROTC and he has loved every minute of it, even the Iraq part. Its not for everyone but I say give it a shot. You should be able to give it a test drive (Navy gives you one year with a scholarship) before you have to sign a contract owing them years of service after, so its worth checking out.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 02-17-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

If I might ask, what scares you? It's not really a life changing experience, no more than going to work for a new company would be.

I have to disagree with you on this. It is a life changing decision. One that is not easy to to get out of once made.

Going to work for a new company is not even close. A company cannot force you to move every 2-6 years. A new company cannot tell you to go get shot at.

Well, they can. But you can also tell them to take a flying .....

I am not saying it is a bad decision and it can be rewarding. But it can also turn out to be a miserable time that seems unescapable.

War.mongeR1 · 02-17-2007, 03:27 PM

Actually, Gringo, you're wrong. I've known people who really wanted out, and yes the military will show them the door. They don't find personnel who hate the military to be very useful, so they can usually get out with just a general discharge, not an honorable or a dishonorable one. I've lost a couple of friends this way. It wasn't hard for them to leave before their enlistment was up. My old buddy Larry was in my squadron when he simply decided that it just wasn't for him. About a month later, he was gone. And hey, worst comes to worst, you can always claim you're gay. I do find a moral issue with getting out early and I think its weak, since you signed your name on the dotted line and took the oath of enlistment, but who am I to judge? Besides, if you really hate your specialty, it's also really easy to request to be cross-trained into something else. I don't know anyone who's been completely stuck in a job they didn't like.

When you enlist, you should know if you want it or not. You did the right thing by bringing up the topic. Talking to others who have military experience is the best way to draw up your conclusions. Before I joined, my civilian friends were all trying to talk me out of it, saying I'd be brainwashed, it was so horrible, they once knew a person who had this happen or that happen. I am SSSOOOOO glad I didn't listen to any of them, because I have seen the world, I am almost done with college, and had a kick-butt job in the meanwhile. My friends are all right where I left them 6 years ago...working at Starbucks, Kinko's, and other low-paying places, and still living at home with their parents. And they still have the nerve to nay-say. And I'm sorry, but living with my parents at 26 is not where I wanted to see myself today. With the military, I've been more independent then I ever was working for large corporations and living at home. Hell, they even gave me a month of paid leave every year! What company will give you that your first year? I too, remember being nervous before joining, since I didn't know what was coming, but I couldn't have asked for more and I've haven't looked back since.

ednos · 02-17-2007, 05:01 PM

Well, the problem is that my "specialty" has nothing to do with the military (I love math and computers, which is why I'm an electrical and computer systems engineer), and physical fitness is not something I've ever experienced. Other than programming, wiring stuff, designing circuits, and doing higher level math stuff, I'm not really interested in anything but video games. I mean, shooting guns is great, but it's only a hobby, and I'm not sure I could bring myself to kill someone either, were I ever placed in a combat situation.

Kerostasis · 02-17-2007, 06:19 PM

All you have to do is not join the Marines and you're fine.

See, what many people don't realize is, every job that has to be done in the civilian world, also has to be done in the military. The military needs doctors, engineers, technicians, mechanics, programmers, just about everything. Only a small portion of the military actually devotes their time to "killing stuff".

The marines are a bit different, as EVERY marine is trained with a gun first, and everything else second, but marines are just crazy like that.

aculle01 · 02-17-2007, 06:26 PM

Ednos, if I were you I would look into the Air Force ROTC at UMass. The chances of you being put into the line of fire are zero, and the AF seems to lean more towards academic based careers than operational judging from the career search.

whatever you do, try to talk with someone in person. Each ROTC unit will have someone in charge of Applicants who is likely an O-3. He/she will have a solid grasp of military life but is still a Junior Officer so an interview or information session will be quite casual. It is a big decision but I think it is a smart one if you are willing to work and are ready to commit to the years.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 02-17-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by War.mongeR1

Actually, Gringo, you're wrong. I've known people who really wanted out, and yes the military will show them the door. They don't find personnel who hate the military to be very useful, so they can usually get out with just a general discharge, not an honorable or a dishonorable one. I've lost a couple of friends this way. It wasn't hard for them to leave before their enlistment was up. My old buddy Larry was in my squadron when he simply decided that it just wasn't for him. About a month later, he was gone. And hey, worst comes to worst, you can always claim you're gay. I do find a moral issue with getting out early and I think its weak, since you signed your name on the dotted line and took the oath of enlistment, but who am I to judge? Besides, if you really hate your specialty, it's also really easy to request to be cross-trained into something else. I don't know anyone who's been completely stuck in a job they didn't like.

When you enlist, you should know if you want it or not. You did the right thing by bringing up the topic. Talking to others who have military experience is the best way to draw up your conclusions. Before I joined, my civilian friends were all trying to talk me out of it, saying I'd be brainwashed, it was so horrible, they once knew a person who had this happen or that happen. I am SSSOOOOO glad I didn't listen to any of them, because I have seen the world, I am almost done with college, and had a kick-butt job in the meanwhile. My friends are all right where I left them 6 years ago...working at Starbucks, Kinko's, and other low-paying places, and still living at home with their parents. And they still have the nerve to nay-say. And I'm sorry, but living with my parents at 26 is not where I wanted to see myself today. With the military, I've been more independent then I ever was working for large corporations and living at home. Hell, they even gave me a month of paid leave every year! What company will give you that your first year? I too, remember being nervous before joining, since I didn't know what was coming, but I couldn't have asked for more and I've haven't looked back since.

First, you are Air Force it sounds like. Air Force is quite different from other branches. They turn recruits away. There is a problem with advancing in the AF because so many stay in. My brother in law is an Air Force recruiter and worked about 3 hours a day because they met quota so fast. AF is the closest thing to a "normal" job when it comes to military.

Second, how easy it is to get out is determined, in large part, by your superiors. And how hard up your division is for personnel. Those two factors alone could make it impossible. We had a guy that was pretty much openly gay and nobody said anything because we where already on 8 and 4's (4 hours of watch 4 hours of training/maintenance 4 hours off.) Another guy on the ship wanted out bad. He was let out, after 2 years of processing at reduced pay and some really horrible (likely deserved) treatment.

Again, changing specialties can be virtually impossible depending on what you do. If you do a critical job you will probably be denied. Or if you command simply doesn't care, denied. I was a nuke and getting out of that specialty was almost impossible outside really screwing up. I fact if I decided to go back there was a clause that said I could only rejoin the Navy as a nuke.

I am glad for your happiness. But it was my experience (again, Navy is different than AF) that for every 1 person that enjoyed military life, 2 didn't mind it (but didn't reenlist) and 2-3 hated it. I hated it, still have nightmares that I have to go back.

But, as I have said before, I wouldn't change my decisions because I joined to serve my country. And that is the only advice I give to anybody that asks it. Join ONLY if you want to serve your country. Don't do it to pay bills or get away from the family or to pay for college. Realize that it can be a horrible experience, especially if you have a problem with authority.

If you happen to like it then good for you. If not, get out when you can and take pride in that you served your country.

Oh, and officers are, technically, officers for life. You can be called up at any time. Though it is very unlikly.

War.mongeR1 · 02-17-2007, 10:52 PM

All good and valid points Gringo. Touche.

**CingularDuality** · 02-20-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ednos

Well, the problem is that my "specialty" has nothing to do with the military (I love math and computers, which is why I'm an electrical and computer systems engineer), and physical fitness is not something I've ever experienced. Other than programming, wiring stuff, designing circuits, and doing higher level math stuff, I'm not really interested in anything but video games. I mean, shooting guns is great, but it's only a hobby, and I'm not sure I could bring myself to kill someone either, were I ever placed in a combat situation.

I was in the Marines for a decade doing the work of an electrical engineer. There are several other TG members there that were doing the same thing, working on communications equipment. Kero was right about there being the military equivalent of every civilian job you can think of...

Quote:

I am glad for your happiness. But it was my experience (again, Navy is different than AF) that for every 1 person that enjoyed military life, 2 didn't mind it (but didn't reenlist) and 2-3 hated it. I hated it, still have nightmares that I have to go back.

Man, you make it sound like you got butt raped when getting your shellback or something. You must have been on a horrible ship, as the rest of the military just isn't like that.

War.mongeR1 · 02-20-2007, 10:04 AM

Maybe like the serious minority, El Gringo Grande got screwed around with by the system. I know a couple Army people who got messed with too. But of the 1000's of people I've come across in the military, they are the exception. Remember, that you can get messed up just as bad if not worse in the civilian sector. Atleast in the military, much less chance of you getting sued at work.

Case in point:
In 1999, I worked at a gymnastics facility teaching small children recreational gymnastics. I had an incredible co-worker, James, who I also had a job in high school with. He was absolutely amazing with kids and parents alike. He was a single father, who had to work 2 jobs to pay the rent and raise his daughter. I knew him for 2 years before he finally had the cash to buy himself an old clunker of a car. Which promptly broke down on him. He was one of the unluckiest guys in the world. His second job (his day job) was at a daycare. At the daycare he was playing with the small children (3-4 years old), he was sitting on the ground with his legs sort of straddled in a V shape. Kids were having fun playing with him, crawling all over him and stuff. A little girl who wasn't paying attention, which is understandable, was running and tripped over his leg. She broke her leg in the process. Nothing too serious, but a broken leg nonetheless. The daycare company was willing to foot the medical bill, but that wasn't good enough for the parents. They sued the pants off of the daycare and him personally for negligance. So he then got fired, was back down to one job, and sued for around $1,000,000 which will take him a lifetime to pay off. Poor guy didn't have much to begin with, but now they were going to take everything else from him.

My point is, crappy stuff happens in the civilian world. Don't fool yourself that the military life is risky, while civilian life is "safe." There's always a chances of lay-offs, enron type scandals, lost pensions, lost stock-options, law-suits, etc. I hate being a pseudo-civilian right now. I'm self-employed, so I can't afford medical insurance at the moment (not while paying my mortgage, car payment, and school tuition). I'm just finishing up school, then once I have degree and private pilots license, I'm jumping right back into the military. I want to go through OCS and get my commission, but if that doesn't work out, I have no problem staying enlisted. It was a good life for me.

**RandomGuy** · 02-20-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I was in the Marines for a decade doing the work of an electrical engineer. There are several other TG members there that were doing the same thing, working on communications equipment. Kero was right about there being the military equivalent of every civilian job you can think of...

My understanding is there some job things that are pretty much the left to defense contrators. Most of the engineering that goes into the military is done at places like Lockheed and Raytheon, right? Field work aside, of course.

In other fields aren't lot of jobs serving military personnel being transitioned to contractors?

War.mongeR1 · 02-20-2007, 12:01 PM

It's true that more and more work is going to contractors, but there is almost always military members involved in any base project. Even if you have a crew of civilian workers doing a project, you will probably have an engineer in charge. I believe it's because of the war that there is so much contractor use now. They have to use the military men to be deployabe or do more important tasks. When it's peacetime again, it'll be back to painting the squadron and filling potholes. Like back in the first half of '01. My entire military life changed after 9/11. I loved it though. No more stupid busy work. It's pretty much all for the mission now.

**CingularDuality** · 02-20-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

My understanding is there some job things that are pretty much the left to defense contrators. Most of the engineering that goes into the military is done at places like Lockheed and Raytheon, right? Field work aside, of course.

In other fields aren't lot of jobs serving military personnel being transitioned to contractors?

First off, when I said "work of an electrical engineer", I was referring to electronics maintenance, not the design of new equipment (although we sometimes had to practically do that to get things to work!).

Yeah, there was a huge push to get away from specially designed defense equipment and move to COTS (commercial off the shelf) equipment, but it's just not feasible for everything. New contracts for equipment almost always come with maintenance contracts for a certain number of years, too, but the bottom line is that there will be a time when a satellite radio breaks and there's no contractor to fix it. Whether it's because it's vital to have it back up in the field immediately, or because the maintenance contract ended, or because Murphy just showed up in some way that I can't even imagine, it's going to happen. While I was in (93-02), most of the contractors were there to train the technicians on the new gear.

So, yeah, there are probably more contractors doing work with fielded equipment than ever before, but that isn't going to eliminate the need for smart, highly trained Marines that can fix switches, encryption devices, radios and computers.

02-17-2007, 02:28 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,965	Re: Army ROTC If I might ask, what scares you? It's not really a life changing experience, no more than going to work for a new company would be. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

02-17-2007, 10:50 AM	#17 (permalink)
aculle01 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Monterey, CA Age: 25 Posts: 1,398	Re: Army ROTC Now, just last year I finished Navy ROTC and received my commission. I haven't looked back since. Somethings may be different between branches and each unit can set their own SOPs (this can also change from CO to CO) but the underlying theme is the same no matter where you go. Sure you have some physical fitness requirements and maybe a few extra classes but your #1 priority is getting good grades. The Army, Navy and AF all expect your school work to come first. You are no good to them if you don't graduate. That being said, ROTC really does not take up that much of your time nor gets in the way of having a good time. Obviously, doing somethign stupid has greater repercussions for those in ROTC than those outside of the program but you can definitely still have a normal college life, believe me. I thought of it as having to take an extra course (for the Navy it actually does require taking extra courses). You can get yourself in trouble if you take it too seriously (not focusing on your studies or enjoying college) or not seriously enough (drawing the wrong type of attention from you superiors), the idea is to find a happy medium where it shows that you care but you aren't putting too much energy into it. I can say I have been on both sides of this spectrum. I have spread myself too thin and was unable to keep up with my school work and I have done some stupid things. Both gave me a bad rep for having the tools but not using them. Once I found the happy place, I have been having a great time. In the military you work hard and you play even harder. As far as life changing, I definitely believe I am better off having completed NROTC than if I went through college as a regular student. It's a guaranteed job that pays $40,000 (Base pay + BAH + BAS) before taxes and provides both medical and dental for free. This is even sweeter if you end up in the specialty you wanted. With the exception of the grief caused by my senior thesis, I was able to enjoy my senior year without having to worry about the next step. As soon as I completed my oath I was getting paid. Now, as it's been mentioned, you will owe the Army some years for them footing the bill so there is a downside if you end up not liking it. But how many people are able to find their dream jobs out of college and/or don't have to worry about paying back student loans? Again, I am in the Navy so I don't know exactly how it goes with the Army but I have a good friend who went through AROTC and he has loved every minute of it, even the Iraq part. Its not for everyone but I say give it a shot. You should be able to give it a test drive (Navy gives you one year with a scholarship) before you have to sign a contract owing them years of service after, so its worth checking out. __________________ "I once thought I had mono for an entire year. It turned out I was just really bored."

02-17-2007, 03:27 PM	#19 (permalink)
War.mongeR1 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,307	Re: Army ROTC Actually, Gringo, you're wrong. I've known people who really wanted out, and yes the military will show them the door. They don't find personnel who hate the military to be very useful, so they can usually get out with just a general discharge, not an honorable or a dishonorable one. I've lost a couple of friends this way. It wasn't hard for them to leave before their enlistment was up. My old buddy Larry was in my squadron when he simply decided that it just wasn't for him. About a month later, he was gone. And hey, worst comes to worst, you can always claim you're gay. I do find a moral issue with getting out early and I think its weak, since you signed your name on the dotted line and took the oath of enlistment, but who am I to judge? Besides, if you really hate your specialty, it's also really easy to request to be cross-trained into something else. I don't know anyone who's been completely stuck in a job they didn't like. When you enlist, you should know if you want it or not. You did the right thing by bringing up the topic. Talking to others who have military experience is the best way to draw up your conclusions. Before I joined, my civilian friends were all trying to talk me out of it, saying I'd be brainwashed, it was so horrible, they once knew a person who had this happen or that happen. I am SSSOOOOO glad I didn't listen to any of them, because I have seen the world, I am almost done with college, and had a kick-butt job in the meanwhile. My friends are all right where I left them 6 years ago...working at Starbucks, Kinko's, and other low-paying places, and still living at home with their parents. And they still have the nerve to nay-say. And I'm sorry, but living with my parents at 26 is not where I wanted to see myself today. With the military, I've been more independent then I ever was working for large corporations and living at home. Hell, they even gave me a month of paid leave every year! What company will give you that your first year? I too, remember being nervous before joining, since I didn't know what was coming, but I couldn't have asked for more and I've haven't looked back since.

02-17-2007, 05:01 PM	#20 (permalink)
ednos Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 3,775	Re: Army ROTC Well, the problem is that my "specialty" has nothing to do with the military (I love math and computers, which is why I'm an electrical and computer systems engineer), and physical fitness is not something I've ever experienced. Other than programming, wiring stuff, designing circuits, and doing higher level math stuff, I'm not really interested in anything but video games. I mean, shooting guns is great, but it's only a hobby, and I'm not sure I could bring myself to kill someone either, were I ever placed in a combat situation. __________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~ Bertrand Russell I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~ Magna Centipede

02-17-2007, 06:26 PM	#22 (permalink)
aculle01 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Monterey, CA Age: 25 Posts: 1,398	Re: Army ROTC Ednos, if I were you I would look into the Air Force ROTC at UMass. The chances of you being put into the line of fire are zero, and the AF seems to lean more towards academic based careers than operational judging from the career search. whatever you do, try to talk with someone in person. Each ROTC unit will have someone in charge of Applicants who is likely an O-3. He/she will have a solid grasp of military life but is still a Junior Officer so an interview or information session will be quite casual. It is a big decision but I think it is a smart one if you are willing to work and are ready to commit to the years. __________________ "I once thought I had mono for an entire year. It turned out I was just really bored."

02-17-2007, 10:52 PM	#24 (permalink)
War.mongeR1 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,307	Re: Army ROTC All good and valid points Gringo. Touche.

02-20-2007, 10:04 AM	#26 (permalink)
War.mongeR1 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,307	Re: Army ROTC Maybe like the serious minority, El Gringo Grande got screwed around with by the system. I know a couple Army people who got messed with too. But of the 1000's of people I've come across in the military, they are the exception. Remember, that you can get messed up just as bad if not worse in the civilian sector. Atleast in the military, much less chance of you getting sued at work. Case in point: In 1999, I worked at a gymnastics facility teaching small children recreational gymnastics. I had an incredible co-worker, James, who I also had a job in high school with. He was absolutely amazing with kids and parents alike. He was a single father, who had to work 2 jobs to pay the rent and raise his daughter. I knew him for 2 years before he finally had the cash to buy himself an old clunker of a car. Which promptly broke down on him. He was one of the unluckiest guys in the world. His second job (his day job) was at a daycare. At the daycare he was playing with the small children (3-4 years old), he was sitting on the ground with his legs sort of straddled in a V shape. Kids were having fun playing with him, crawling all over him and stuff. A little girl who wasn't paying attention, which is understandable, was running and tripped over his leg. She broke her leg in the process. Nothing too serious, but a broken leg nonetheless. The daycare company was willing to foot the medical bill, but that wasn't good enough for the parents. They sued the pants off of the daycare and him personally for negligance. So he then got fired, was back down to one job, and sued for around $1,000,000 which will take him a lifetime to pay off. Poor guy didn't have much to begin with, but now they were going to take everything else from him. My point is, crappy stuff happens in the civilian world. Don't fool yourself that the military life is risky, while civilian life is "safe." There's always a chances of lay-offs, enron type scandals, lost pensions, lost stock-options, law-suits, etc. I hate being a pseudo-civilian right now. I'm self-employed, so I can't afford medical insurance at the moment (not while paying my mortgage, car payment, and school tuition). I'm just finishing up school, then once I have degree and private pilots license, I'm jumping right back into the military. I want to go through OCS and get my commission, but if that doesn't work out, I have no problem staying enlisted. It was a good life for me.

02-20-2007, 12:01 PM	#28 (permalink)
War.mongeR1 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,307	Re: Army ROTC It's true that more and more work is going to contractors, but there is almost always military members involved in any base project. Even if you have a crew of civilian workers doing a project, you will probably have an engineer in charge. I believe it's because of the war that there is so much contractor use now. They have to use the military men to be deployabe or do more important tasks. When it's peacetime again, it'll be back to painting the squadron and filling potholes. Like back in the first half of '01. My entire military life changed after 9/11. I loved it though. No more stupid busy work. It's pretty much all for the mission now.

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