A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles

**P8riot** · 06-05-2007, 11:42 AM

I ran across a couple of these news bulletins today - unrelated although military development in nature. The first involves the automated defense of the Isreali 'No Go Zone'.

The other.. well.. lets just say, it's military tech developed for the good of mankind.. odor-eating pants.

FWIW

**MagnaCentipede** · 06-05-2007, 12:04 PM

1)
So, it wasn't striking the rock twice that denied Moses entry into the promised land, but rather the gigantic belt-fed turret gun that pulverised him into the ground. You learn something new every day.

2)
"Efforts to repel NBC threats have included the hotly-disputed Missile Defence programme"

When NBC tries to threaten me with their prime-time programming I say "who turned the TV on?" and disable it by applying my finger to the power button. Unfortunately, missiles won't stop electromagnetic radiation, and knocking down the towers would be unlawful destruction of private property.

Diceman · 06-05-2007, 12:27 PM

It looks to me like an application of 100 year old tactics, and a fundamental misunderstanding of how to wage fourth generation war.

I wonder what considerations have been made regarding the political cost to be felt in Israel when one of those guns takes out a child or a whole family.

**MagnaCentipede** · 06-05-2007, 12:43 PM

I have a feeling they aren't too terribly concerned. From what I hear their official response to the USS Liberty was "lol, our bad," and the US's official response was "cc, <3"

**CingularDuality** · 06-05-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

I have a feeling they aren't too terribly concerned. From what I hear their official response to the USS Liberty was "lol, our bad," and the US's official response was "cc, <3"

Ain't that the truth...

And if anyone doesn't know about the USS Liberty, take a few moments to educate yourself: http://www.ussliberty.org/

xTYBALTx · 06-05-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Ain't that the truth...

And if anyone doesn't know about the USS Liberty, take a few moments to educate yourself: http://www.ussliberty.org/

Yeah, I sure wish the Chinese had treated the bombing of their embassy as an act of war.

**CingularDuality** · 06-05-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Yeah, I sure wish the Chinese had treated the bombing of their embassy as an act of war.

You think we intentionally bombed the Chinese embassy? And that after they said "Hey, it's us! Stop bombing!", that we pummeled them some more?

Apples and oranges, my friend.

xTYBALTx · 06-05-2007, 03:55 PM

I'm not going to get into a USS Liberty incident discussion. But I don't see much reason for a nation to deliberately attack the ship of an important ally. Sounds about as plausible as NASA filming the lunar landings in a Hollywood studio.

It also seems that some of your details are innacurate. From the wiki:

"A James Bamford book, published in 2001, claimed that secret NSA intercepts recorded by an American reconnaissance aircraft indicate that Israeli pilots had full knowledge they were attacking a U.S. vessel.[10][16]. The tapes were released by the National Security Agency in 1993 as a result of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by A. Jay Cristol. The tapes record the communications of Israeli helicopter pilots who were not involved in the attack and who were sent to the USS Liberty's position after the attack was over."

War.mongeR1 · 06-05-2007, 04:30 PM

Those odor-eating pants would take away all the fun of flatulence. There's nothing quite like walking by a young couple in a bar (particularly when the girl is hot) and stealthily cutting one and taking off...thus making it look like the girl's date is the culprit. Lol.

And regarding the automated defense. I'm sure it will be well known, so if someone tries running the border, it's their own dang fault if they get mowed down. We should do the same thing to Mexico. Yeah, buddy. Also this way, Israeli soldiers won't be getting in trouble for protecting their country anymore. Now it can be blamed on the robots. It's a win-win situation if you ask me.

Diceman · 06-05-2007, 06:14 PM

It depends who you're defending against. I don't think border-jumping of the sort practiced on the US southern border should be punishable by death.

Defending the national interest against militants is another question - but the problem is that the militants aren't dumb. If anything, their research and development cycles are hyper-efficient compared to the centralized and hierarchical organizations in place to defend against them. They will find another way around, and those guns will be for naught, except a political liability - for when someone harmless (not innocent, but harmless) is killed by a robotic brain that can't make good choices.

**P8riot** · 06-05-2007, 06:47 PM

Wow.. Geeez.. only one comment on odor eliminating pantaloons.

**MagnaCentipede** · 06-05-2007, 09:18 PM

"I don't think border-jumping of the sort practiced on the US southern border should be punishable by death."

If the numbers were something like 50 a year, I would agree with that statement. But it is clear just by watching TV that there is a growing movement of American-hating immigrants who are actively trying to hijack this nation. When illegals fill the streets, I want to see a wave of knockout gas move through, followed by a line of C-130's sending them all back to somewhere in Chiapas. Just add the price of fuel and parachutes to the yearly taxes; it's a cost imperceptable in the long-run. If they want to get together and become US citizens, they should be doing it in Mexico helping each other study the forms to apply for citizenship.

War.mongeR1 · 06-06-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P8riot

Wow.. Geeez.. only one comment on odor eliminating pantaloons.

I know. This surprises me too. Comon' people! These pants are going to change the world!

Diceman · 06-06-2007, 02:16 AM

You and I have wildly divergent understandings about what is happening with illegal immigration in the US - but that is really besides the point. I only used that as an example, although our different views on the example make it a poor choice in retrospect.

Allow me instead to describe the characteristics of a kind of border crossing that doesn't deserve death to be meted out as the nominal enforcement. It is a benign sort, where the border crossers seek not the destruction of the destination state, but a level of security, wealth and comfort that is in practice not acheivable in the land from which they come.

While I would describe most illegal immigrants to the US under these terms, that is again beside the point. Closer to the point then: in other parts of the world, refugees are also describable using the above terms. And they do not deserve to die.

Let me try to further illustrate my position by describing a time when the use of these systems is more morally defensible: that of the world-war one trench warfare.

In this environment, where every contact in a 180 degree arc is an enemy, I would have far fewer issues with this gun system being deployed.

But borders are not trenches, and the people on the other side are not the enemy. Yes, the enemy is out there and the enemy must be killed because he intends to do the same to the Israelis. But, despite the rhetoric out there, the vast majority of people are non-combatants. They can be made combatants, by the slaughter of their families, their wives and children.

That is what these guns do: they slaughter indiscriminantly. In doing so, they build the moral force of the enemy. And this is why it is a fundamental misunderstanding of fourth generational warfare.

From a tactical perspective, a line of these guns is nothing more than a high-tech Maiginot line - and they will be defeated just as easily.

**MagnaCentipede** · 06-06-2007, 03:05 AM

The tactical perspective is Israel's standing up and saying "we're willing to risk killing innocents to show we're serious about boarder security." It may be easily defeated, but it makes a point. It's like barbed wire with bite.

"They can be made combatants, by the slaughter of their families, their wives and children."

Maybe that's part of the point.
1) Make automated turrets.
2) Wait for them to kill foreign civilians.
3) Wait for revenge.
4) Point at turrets and yell "See why we needed these!"

06-05-2007, 11:42 AM	#1 (permalink)
P8riot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bradenton, FL Age: 37 Posts: 2,636	A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles I ran across a couple of these news bulletins today - unrelated although military development in nature. The first involves the automated defense of the Isreali 'No Go Zone'. The other.. well.. lets just say, it's military tech developed for the good of mankind.. odor-eating pants. FWIW __________________ Dungeons and Dragons Online; Thorgaard, Thaumiel and Mahblung EVE Online Captain Thorgaard OHern; skipper of the Battlecruiser "Jane Says.." Pirates of the Burning Sea; Pirate Thorgaard O'Hern Age of Conan Cimmeria; Tharashk, Thaumiel, guild Ars Tactika

06-05-2007, 12:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,852	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles 1) So, it wasn't striking the rock twice that denied Moses entry into the promised land, but rather the gigantic belt-fed turret gun that pulverised him into the ground. You learn something new every day. 2) "Efforts to repel NBC threats have included the hotly-disputed Missile Defence programme" When NBC tries to threaten me with their prime-time programming I say "who turned the TV on?" and disable it by applying my finger to the power button. Unfortunately, missiles won't stop electromagnetic radiation, and knocking down the towers would be unlawful destruction of private property. __________________

06-05-2007, 12:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 29 Posts: 986	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles It looks to me like an application of 100 year old tactics, and a fundamental misunderstanding of how to wage fourth generation war. I wonder what considerations have been made regarding the political cost to be felt in Israel when one of those guns takes out a child or a whole family. __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

06-05-2007, 12:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,852	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles I have a feeling they aren't too terribly concerned. From what I hear their official response to the USS Liberty was "lol, our bad," and the US's official response was "cc, <3" __________________

06-05-2007, 03:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,744	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles I'm not going to get into a USS Liberty incident discussion. But I don't see much reason for a nation to deliberately attack the ship of an important ally. Sounds about as plausible as NASA filming the lunar landings in a Hollywood studio. It also seems that some of your details are innacurate. From the wiki: "A James Bamford book, published in 2001, claimed that secret NSA intercepts recorded by an American reconnaissance aircraft indicate that Israeli pilots had full knowledge they were attacking a U.S. vessel.[10][16]. The tapes were released by the National Security Agency in 1993 as a result of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by A. Jay Cristol. The tapes record the communications of Israeli helicopter pilots who were not involved in the attack and who were sent to the USS Liberty's position after the attack was over." __________________ Current good song: Justice - Stress "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

06-05-2007, 04:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
War.mongeR1 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,199	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles Those odor-eating pants would take away all the fun of flatulence. There's nothing quite like walking by a young couple in a bar (particularly when the girl is hot) and stealthily cutting one and taking off...thus making it look like the girl's date is the culprit. Lol. And regarding the automated defense. I'm sure it will be well known, so if someone tries running the border, it's their own dang fault if they get mowed down. We should do the same thing to Mexico. Yeah, buddy. Also this way, Israeli soldiers won't be getting in trouble for protecting their country anymore. Now it can be blamed on the robots. It's a win-win situation if you ask me. __________________ "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

06-05-2007, 06:14 PM	#10 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 29 Posts: 986	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles It depends who you're defending against. I don't think border-jumping of the sort practiced on the US southern border should be punishable by death. Defending the national interest against militants is another question - but the problem is that the militants aren't dumb. If anything, their research and development cycles are hyper-efficient compared to the centralized and hierarchical organizations in place to defend against them. They will find another way around, and those guns will be for naught, except a political liability - for when someone harmless (not innocent, but harmless) is killed by a robotic brain that can't make good choices. __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

06-05-2007, 06:47 PM	#11 (permalink)
P8riot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bradenton, FL Age: 37 Posts: 2,636	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles Wow.. Geeez.. only one comment on odor eliminating pantaloons. __________________ Dungeons and Dragons Online; Thorgaard, Thaumiel and Mahblung EVE Online Captain Thorgaard OHern; skipper of the Battlecruiser "Jane Says.." Pirates of the Burning Sea; Pirate Thorgaard O'Hern Age of Conan Cimmeria; Tharashk, Thaumiel, guild Ars Tactika

06-05-2007, 09:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,852	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles "I don't think border-jumping of the sort practiced on the US southern border should be punishable by death." If the numbers were something like 50 a year, I would agree with that statement. But it is clear just by watching TV that there is a growing movement of American-hating immigrants who are actively trying to hijack this nation. When illegals fill the streets, I want to see a wave of knockout gas move through, followed by a line of C-130's sending them all back to somewhere in Chiapas. Just add the price of fuel and parachutes to the yearly taxes; it's a cost imperceptable in the long-run. If they want to get together and become US citizens, they should be doing it in Mexico helping each other study the forms to apply for citizenship. __________________

06-06-2007, 02:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 29 Posts: 986	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles You and I have wildly divergent understandings about what is happening with illegal immigration in the US - but that is really besides the point. I only used that as an example, although our different views on the example make it a poor choice in retrospect. Allow me instead to describe the characteristics of a kind of border crossing that doesn't deserve death to be meted out as the nominal enforcement. It is a benign sort, where the border crossers seek not the destruction of the destination state, but a level of security, wealth and comfort that is in practice not acheivable in the land from which they come. While I would describe most illegal immigrants to the US under these terms, that is again beside the point. Closer to the point then: in other parts of the world, refugees are also describable using the above terms. And they do not deserve to die. Let me try to further illustrate my position by describing a time when the use of these systems is more morally defensible: that of the world-war one trench warfare. In this environment, where every contact in a 180 degree arc is an enemy, I would have far fewer issues with this gun system being deployed. But borders are not trenches, and the people on the other side are not the enemy. Yes, the enemy is out there and the enemy must be killed because he intends to do the same to the Israelis. But, despite the rhetoric out there, the vast majority of people are non-combatants. They can be made combatants, by the slaughter of their families, their wives and children. That is what these guns do: they slaughter indiscriminantly. In doing so, they build the moral force of the enemy. And this is why it is a fundamental misunderstanding of fourth generational warfare. From a tactical perspective, a line of these guns is nothing more than a high-tech Maiginot line - and they will be defeated just as easily. __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

06-06-2007, 03:05 AM	#15 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,852	Re: A couple of interesting - but unrelated articles The tactical perspective is Israel's standing up and saying "we're willing to risk killing innocents to show we're serious about boarder security." It may be easily defeated, but it makes a point. It's like barbed wire with bite. "They can be made combatants, by the slaughter of their families, their wives and children." Maybe that's part of the point. 1) Make automated turrets. 2) Wait for them to kill foreign civilians. 3) Wait for revenge. 4) Point at turrets and yell "See why we needed these!" __________________

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