El_Gringo_Grande

MagnaCentipede you are a good example of what I hear all the time. And I believe your solutions are at best over simplified and in many cases just ineffective.

We could go point by point and have a very long discussion but I will take the two statements that I think exemplifies what I mean.

4. Recognizes the fact that many illegals have American children and any new laws should protect the American children's rights.
Modify the born-here clause to require at least one parent be a United Statesican. Either that, or deport the illegals and burdon the orphanages with American children without legal guardians.

This is the oversimplification I am talking about. You suggest changing the constitution? Know how difficult that is? The congress can't even pass a bill and you expect the constitution to be changed? And this does nothing for the millions of American children already here. So you say put a couple of million children in orphanages? That is laughable and it will never happen.

And I don't think you understand the current work force. For example, you know that the oil field relies on illegal workers? These are not low paying jobs either. They are jobs that pay 20-40 dollars an hour and have benefits. The problem is a lot of them are in isolated places that nobody wants to work. Places where the nearest movie theater is 40-50 miles away and the local DVD rental selection is, maybe, one hundred movies. Where there isn't even cable television.

Pig farms and stock yards are another big source of work that nobody wants to do at any reasonable wage. At 11-25 dollars an hour the locals do not want to do many of the jobs at the pig farms. And again they cannot get people to move in at those wages.

Well, some do. But they tend to be those with drug problems and or no work ethic. Or Americans that are not white are afraid to move in because those areas are not exactly "diverse".

The companies have tried to place the factories closer to population centers but, surprisingly, no cities wants a huge pig farm with all it's waste close to them. Not good for other businesses and the locals don't like the smell that much.

So I ask, are you serious? You can't be. You must be expressing emotional responses to a difficult and complicated situation. Either that or you are completely disconnected with reality.

I do know, however, that is how many people feel. It is almost like it is so difficult a problem that all they can do is react emotionally.

The whole "they broke the law by coming over" argument. So what. Everybody breaks the law. Speeding, behavior in nudy bars, smoking dope, underage drinking. In Oklahoma oral sex is a misdemeanor and is punishable by one year in jail and a $2,500 fine.

There is no way you can be upset just because they are breaking a law. Americans have a glorious tradition of breaking laws and being proud of it. I am getting ready to break a couple of laws because I am changing my remodel project without getting a change order from the city. HAH! Take that, city government.

So it is hard to see how they are harming our economy. They are breaking a law but so what. It is the law that is harming us, not the people.

Securing the boarders? That one is legitimate. But is it even possible to completely secure it? One of the best places to get in is through the Vermont, New Hampshire, Main boarder from Canada. The terrain allows much better hiding and the environment much more hospitable than that of the southwest. Plus major, diverse population areas are much closer allowing quick hidding.

And if you really want to secure the southern boarder the best thing to do is easily and legally allow people to cross at controllable points. That way you can be pretty sure those going through the desert are up to no good.

The only thing I find offensive about the current situation is that the illegals are often exploited.

I just don't understand what the fear is about. It is xenophobia. And all phobias are irrational.

__________________
Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

Judge_Leo

Arf, I strongly disagree with both of the points you make above. First of all we have an ineffective immigration policy, hence the basis of this thread.

Secondly I think you are confused with what it was that made this country. Our country's wealth was created through agriculture, mining, timber and manufacturing. We have exported and continue to export our manufacturing jobs to low cost countries at an accelerating pace. Most of our mining industries are in decline as is the timber industry. The employees in those industries represent our skilled labor pool, and it is shrinking fast. Most of those jobs have been replaced by service industry jobs. The difference is that in manufacturing, mining, timber a product is created and value is created - capital. This is the source of the wealth of our nation. The service industries do not create capital they just move it around. Sure the people that are working in those positions are educated and skilled, but what capital does a doctor, banker or insurance agent create?

Remember how Germany's currency was devalued during and after WWII? The reason was because they had no capital resources to back their currency. Their capital was consumed by war - but nonetheless it no longer existed.

All you and I have to base our wealth on is our American dollars. (Unless you are wise enough to own gold or foreign currencies as part of your investments.) And if we continue to allow our capital to be removed from this country eventually our currency will be devalued and we will be as poor as many of the nations we are talking about importing these immigrants from. So some day we may all be millionaires - but that may be because it will cost that much to fill a car up with gas!

Arf

You can have unemployment and unfilled jobs. If someone gets fired from the IT job they're likely to stay unemployed until they can find another job in the IT field despite a job opening in retail. On the other side an IT job isn't going to be filled by an unskilled illegal immigrant. In both cases despite their being an open job both people remain unemployed.

Unemployment can be caused by many other reasons. Expanding companies hire more employees to meet future needs and if that future doesn't come they lay off the excess. New technologies cause unemployment, the light bulb made a lot of candle makers obsolete. Competition causes unemployment when a company like Walmart puts the local grocery store out of business. Then there are always poor workers who just aren't worth keeping employed; a worker that steals may cost more then having no worker at all.

Unemployment can't be solved by just assigning people jobs, it's simply a part of the economy. Right now we have a demand for more unskilled labor and illegal immigrants are solving that problem. Since we already have a solution there's really no reason to expend resources deporting them so we can create the problem again and change the laws so we can come to the same solution. It would be a waste of time and effort.

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Lucky Shot

But because it centers around an illegal solution, why not pursue easing the restrictions on those who are trying to immigrate the right way?

Lucky Shot

El_Gringo_Grande

DECLAN MCCULLAGH, CNET NEWS - The U.S. Senate definitively rejected President George Bush's immigration bill on Thursday, just hours after senators expressed deep misgivings with portions that would have expanded the use of a national ID card. . . Privacy advocates were quick to claim that a vote against Real ID cards the previous evening doomed the bill.
Wednesday's vote showed that senators were willing to delete the portion of the labyrinthine immigration bill that would require employers to demand the Real ID cards from new hires. Because some of the bill's backers had insisted that the ID requirement remain in place--as a way to identify illegal immigrants--they were no longer as willing to support the overall bill.
"The proponents of national ID in the Senate weren't getting what they wanted, so they backed away," said Jim Harper, a policy analyst at the free-market Cato Institute who opposes Real ID. "It was a landmine that blew up in their faces."
In a press release, the two Montana Democrats, Max Baucus and Jon Tester, said they were happy that a pro-privacy approach killed the bill. "If Jon and I just brought down the entire bill, that's good for Montana and the country," said Baucus, who cosponsored the amendment deleting the employer verification rule.

Pasted from <http://prorev.com/indexa.htm>

__________________
Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

Arf

It's not worth the cost. The government was slow in addressing a new problem and in the time it took it to act the problem started to self-correct. All we would be doing is turning back that self-correction to make up for the government's inadequacy.

The end result will be the same. We need cheap labor and we don't pay people to immigrate to the US. The only people that will work cheaply enough and are close enough to afford the move are going to be largely Mexicans. Most of the illegals we deported would simply come right back (legally of course) to fill the void they left but tax payers would have to foot the bill of tracking them down and kicking them out.

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Lucky Shot

Funny, I keep reading how Illegal Immigrants are draining resources as opposed to providing it. I support doing things the right way, and amnesty is not it.

Lucky Shot

Arf

That is funny. I don't have any problem finding arguments for either side of the debate. It would probably be in your best interest to broaden your horizons.

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Lucky Shot

I've been fairly consistent on my opinion of Illegal Immigration. Whats funny is how little you do to support your opinion. You haven't shown me any decent proof that this is good for the US when it's clear to me that this is undercutting those who are willing to work for minimum wage.

Lucky Shot

Arf

Here's a good explanation as to why 0% unemployment is bad if you don't believe me:

http://economics.about.com/od/helpfo...employment.htm

Here's a good comparison of the advantages of the American immigration system compared to those of Europe:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040301621.html

There's another one by the same author that talks about the riots in France but I'll find it later if it's out there.

Here's an actual economist:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10057096

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Lucky Shot

But moving towards a Zero percent puts a greater value on the need for workers, meaning that they have to increase their pay in order to attract workers. This means better wages for those at the bottom. In the mean time, your suggestion undercuts their wages and supports bringing in those who tax our countries resources.

That second article that you wrote would be a good piece to support the expansion of Legal Immigration. It works for the US and has worked for a long time. I support immigrating correctly.

Lucky Shot

xTYBALTx

Fixed :]

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Lucky Shot

Which employers are you referring to? Illegal Immigrants tend to fill what type of jobs? Agriculture, Hospitality, Construction, right? Are you saying that those employers go elsewhere?

Lucky Shot

Arf

Anything in manufacturing, for example cars and computer parts tend to be designed in the US and built in other countries because their laborers are cheaper. That's why everything is made in China.

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Lucky Shot

So your taking the position that Manufacturing jobs such as Automotive would be doing well if they were held by Illegal Aliens who made less then the minimum wage. Interesting.

Lucky Shot