Sicko - spoilers - Page 11

**RandomGuy** · 03-04-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Insurance companies try to say they wont pay anymore for a patient who still needs to be there, and the hospital basically retorts with "if you refuse payment for them, we'll sue you senseless for endangering the life of our patient."

I can understand the benefits of an adversarial criminal justice system, but do you think an adversarial system is the best way to make health care decisions?

Hambergler · 03-04-2008, 08:10 AM

Two months ago my friend got off the phone with his dad. He was supposed to be headed over to their house after a nap. He never made it. The next day his parents go over to his house and find him unconscious. He spent 6 weeks in a pneumonia induced coma. When he woke up the hospital asked him if he had insurance. He did not. The next day they put him in a wheel chair and wheeled him out the front door, in the rain no less. A nice cab driver took him to a public hospital. They said he still had full blown pneumonia. So St Lukes hospital put someone in the street that was completely incoherent, had no muscle strength, and pneumonia on the street in the rain. Anyone in health care that thinks this is OK should not be in the field.

I wouldn't go to those free clinics for care. They have the most incompetent loser doctors. Even if I had no where else to go. Maybe for blood work or antibiotics, but thats it. What are they going to do brain surgery on me.

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

I wouldn't go to those free clinics for care. They have the most incompetent loser doctors. Even if I had no where else to go. Maybe for blood work or antibiotics, but thats it. What are they going to do brain surgery on me.

Wow Hambergler, I'm completely offended by that statement. I have worked full time and still volunteer at free clinics. I know many completely competent and absolutely fantastic doctors who do and have done the same. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and you've managed to piss me off bad enough that I cant continue what I want to say without earning myself a forum ban. All I have to say is that you better steer clear of me for a while.

However, this also detracts from your ability, in my eyes, to make a truthful statement. I have a real problem believing that ANY hospital would discharge someone with an obvious acute case of pneumonia and push them out in a wheelchair in the rain. Furthermore, you said he was delirious, which if true means that he couldnt have possibly told them he didnt have medical insurance. Lastly, you said he spent 6 weeks in a coma, discharging him the day he wakes up, or even the day after is IMPOSSIBLE. The tests for brain damage and infection alone that would have been started the minute he woke up would take over 2 days alone.

What you described is not only a violation of the nursing code, but also the hypocratic oath, as well as several state and federal laws. Any one of which would not only cost you your medical license, but earn you a lawsuit the size of new york city. So either you lied, or your friend experienced something the likes of which should never happen and he needs to get himself a lawyer and sue the living hell out of that hopsital, the doctor that discharged him, the nurse who ran his bloodwork, the chief of medicine, the orderly who pushed his wheelchair and anyone else who attended him during his stay. But since what you described is an event so unbelievable that it borders on an Alfred Hitchcock horror story, I doubt that is gonna happen.

**CingularDuality** · 03-04-2008, 11:06 AM

And that's the problem, right there. Sure, we all hear stories of horrible health care, but I'm completely satisfied with mine. I can go see my family physician any time I need to. In an emergency she'll fit us in the same day (like last month when I had the flu and I finally decided that when my fever hit 106F that I needed more than just acetaminophen and ibuprofen). None of my friends or family are dissatisfied with their standard of care, either. Sure, some of them whine and bitch about the costs, but does anyone here think that socialized healthcare is somehow going to be cheaper for us middle class folks with the government in charge of it?

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 11:20 AM

Of course not, the money we pay in health insurance would simply be diverted to tax money and the people in a lower economic subset who are using free methods of healthcare now, would continue to reap the same benefits.

Plus, socialized medicine in the US is impossible. The insurance companies alone are multibillion dollar organizations, you think they'd volunteer to go out of business? I dont think so. Not to mention the entire medical community of this country agreeing to take a 60+% pay cut. Cant happen, wont happen.

Oh and Cing, just a little friendly advice for future illness: When your temp hits 102.5, it's hospital time. Theres no over-the-counter meds that can lower a fever that high. Plus, at 104 you begin risking brain damage.

TheFatKidDeath · 03-04-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

How is it a denial of the state of the healthcare system? As kero pointed out, this was ADVERTISED. This means all the lazy schlubs who b**ch and moan about crappy healthcare and are too lazy to go find a free clinic see the ads on TV or in the paper that is so conveniently delivered to their doorstep and they take a drive. I'd be willing to bet that if someone were to find out where these people who drove "200 miles" are from, you'd find a free clinic that would have taken care of them MUCH closer. Again, I repeat myself, whats missing here?

The problem isnt that the system is broken in your example. The problem is that the people who complain are too lazy to go SEEK help, and instead we wind up with people driving 200 miles because they were too lazy to open the yellow pages and find a free clinic close by.

Also, to the point of your uncle's medical care: ERs see patients based on severity of condition. When you come in, the trained staff at the desk does a quick rundown of your condition. If you're bleeding to death, you're first in line. If you're having a heart attack or some other immediately life threatening condition, you're at the top of the list. If you come in with breathing troubles, but you're breathing ok and stable for the moment, you're not an urgent case. When I broke my knee in 5th grade (see the story in RGM's thread in the General Discussion forum), I sat in the emergency room for 8+ hours. I didnt understand then, but I understand now and have no problem with it.

As far as the insurance discharge, that happens a lot. However, the hospital does have the authority to override an insurance company "pulling the plug", so to speak, if a patient needs further medical care and its not safe for them to be discharged. My hospital does it all the time. Insurance companies try to say they wont pay anymore for a patient who still needs to be there, and the hospital basically retorts with "if you refuse payment for them, we'll sue you senseless for endangering the life of our patient."

Your struggling here. Instead of blaming a medical system which favors profit over serving the patient you blame "lazy sclubs" who are too dumb to visit a free local clinic. Interesting critique and one that does not hold up with the facts.

The point I made regarding my Uncle's 5 + hours was not based on the severity of his condition but the fact that opponents of a single payer health care system use that very example of why we don't need a national health care plan.

Insurance discharge happens alot. So? The doctors and hospitals should be making the decision on discharge, not a insurance company whose interest has less to do with patient care than their bottom line.

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 11:58 AM

What facts? We have an anecdote about people who drove 200+ miles to visit this medical expedition to receive care from an unspecified origin. So lets see, within 250 miles (since the article specified more than 200 miles), you have Charlotte NC, Atlanta GA, Birmingham AL, Chattanooga TN, Nashville TN, Lexington KY, Louisville KY, and Cincinnati OH. That covers major cities in a complete radius, all of which have free clinics. So why didnt they go there? Why choose to drive 200+ miles over something MUCH closer? Theres no struggle in that, it's simple logic.

I agree that insurance companies only have one thing in mind, and yes, it is a problem, but there are an increasing number of cases in which the insurance companies are getting sued over it. One woman was denied her insurance claim when she was diagnosed with breast cancer and sued the carrier. She was awarded 9 million dollars. See the article here.

So perhaps the problem isnt the medical "system" as you say, but a specific piece of it. The insurance companies just need to be smacked around some. I agree completely that the doctors should be making the decisions on patient care.

Steeler · 03-04-2008, 12:08 PM

Are there any free dental clinics? The primary character in the piece needed dental work. And that can be expensive with or without insurance.

Which brings up another issue: why is dentistry a wholly seperate form of medical care, subject to different regulatory and finance issues? Why are companies likely to specifically omit oral care from many health plans?

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 12:30 PM

Yes, there are free dental clinics. As for the second question, I dont really know as I'm not on the dentistry side of things.

Hambergler · 03-04-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Wow Hambergler, I'm completely offended by that statement. I have worked full time and still volunteer at free clinics. I know many completely competent and absolutely fantastic doctors who do and have done the same. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and you've managed to piss me off bad enough that I cant continue what I want to say without earning myself a forum ban. All I have to say is that you better steer clear of me for a while.

However, this also detracts from your ability, in my eyes, to make a truthful statement. I have a real problem believing that ANY hospital would discharge someone with an obvious acute case of pneumonia and push them out in a wheelchair in the rain. Furthermore, you said he was delirious, which if true means that he couldnt have possibly told them he didnt have medical insurance. Lastly, you said he spent 6 weeks in a coma, discharging him the day he wakes up, or even the day after is IMPOSSIBLE. The tests for brain damage and infection alone that would have been started the minute he woke up would take over 2 days alone.

What you described is not only a violation of the nursing code, but also the hypocratic oath, as well as several state and federal laws. Any one of which would not only cost you your medical license, but earn you a lawsuit the size of new york city. So either you lied, or your friend experienced something the likes of which should never happen and he needs to get himself a lawyer and sue the living hell out of that hopsital, the doctor that discharged him, the nurse who ran his bloodwork, the chief of medicine, the orderly who pushed his wheelchair and anyone else who attended him during his stay. But since what you described is an event so unbelievable that it borders on an Alfred Hitchcock horror story, I doubt that is gonna happen.

Sorry to burst your bubble. The current health care system is powered by greed, not the hypocratic oath. Your Alfred Hitchcock reaction was the same one I had. Have you seen Sicko? There are a hundreds of stories like this. Are all those people lying too? Unfortunately what I said happened really happened. Perhaps my friend should get a lawyer and sue.

I live in Houston. If you can google me a good free clinic that I can go to with a reputable Dr that will provide general care, specialty care, emergency care, surgery, Imaging and prescriptions. I would happily stop paying Blue Cross Blue shield. It's just not going to happen.

Your assertion that anyone can pony up their $150 a month and have the perceived quality of health care you enjoy is true, unless they have a preexisting condition. In which case they must be prepared to suffer an arduous life and perhaps a trip to India. For the people that think that they are covered. There isn't a week that goes by that I don't read about an insurance company acting in ill faith and being punished in court. The system runs great until it's you or your family getting screwed. I have been in health care for 10 years and most of my family is in health care and I have never met anyone as sympathetic to the insurance companies as you. The bottom line is that insurance companies have no business making health care decisions and people with pre-existings need quality coverage, and that is not the current situation.

**TurkishDelight** · 03-04-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

I have been in health care for 10 years

Were those years on the administrative side?

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

I live in Houston. If you can google me a good free clinic that I can go to with a reputable Dr that will provide general care, specialty care, emergency care, surgery, Imaging and prescriptions. I would happily stop paying Blue Cross Blue shield. It's just not going to happen.

Really, cause if thats the case, give me a few days to get in touch with some colleagues in texas and I'll find you one that does all of the above. That doesnt detract from your extremely offensive remarks though.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-04-2008, 06:44 PM

There is no study I have seen that says Americas health care system is best in the world.

The most expensive, maybe, but not the best. In most studies I have seen it is decidedly average. And I am so proud to be in the country with the most expensive average medical system that doesn't serve the entire population.

My wife was kinda of surprised at the US medical system. The care she has received here is OK. No better than she received in her home country of Ecuador but much much more expensive. Also the speed at which you get attention when going to the emergency room. In her country she said that you where seen by a doctor within five minutes of stepping into the place. Of course she was also surprised at how many people where at the emergency room.

For example her sister flew to Ecuador and had a surgery and stayed in the hospital for 7 days of recuperation. This was in a private room with around the clock nursing and all kinds of extras like gourmet meals. Total cost, $2300 and included everything including all medications and follow up care. Throw in the plane ticket at ~$500 and you have total cost of $2800. Her friend who got the exact same procedure here in OKC paid $7,000 and that did not include the medications or follow up care and was for only two days in a shared room. No gourmet meals by the way.

And Farris, about your free clinics. If they are so great why doesn't everybody use them? They are free, right? Why pay hundreds of dollars when you could only pay nothing or a few bucks?

I used free clinics while in college. They don't offer all the services a hospital does. They have very limited hours of operation. If you are a working person that cannot take off from work easily then getting to one will be difficult. They are hard to find. They are located, generally, in metropolitan areas.

And I just looked in my yellow pages and did not find one. I am home sick and have some time so did a fairly thorough search. I called a few hospitals and two of them told me to contact DHS because they can't give out that information. What?

One, OU medical center which is a research and teaching hospital, did provide very good information about three different ones in the area. Unfortunately all of them had a waiting list of over a week. They said if I have certain conditions (vomiting for more than two days, fever over 103 etc) go to an emergency room. On a lark I asked about free dental clinics. They had no idea about that. So I called up my old boss who's husband is a dentist. I found out that, as far as she knows, there are no free dental clinics in the greater OKC area. However there are some dentists that do free services. The waiting time for those, however, are even longer. Usually around a month. She was happy to inform me that if I was to get incarcerated all the local prisons have dentists that come in weekly. And they are free! Her and her husband both criticize the medical system because of things like this.

And this morning there was a story about one of OKC's free clinics. The doctor running it said our medical system was a mess and it needed some serious work.

I was reminded what it was like to be sick and poor in America. Yes, I probably wouldn't die. But the time would be stressful and I would suffer longer than somebody with insurance would.

So why, Farris, are you so proud of this system? It is average, at best. Yet it costs more than just about any other medical system in the world. I am sure at the vast majority of the people actually doing the work care about the patients. But there a large parts of the system that simply do not care about anything but how much money they can make off of sick people. And these entities controls, in large part, how the system works. Every single doctor I have ever had has complained how the system works. They hate the drug companies and their practices with advertising that simply confuses the patient. They hate that they can't treat the people the best way they know how because of certain entities controlling the money. They have told this to me personally. And I only see them MAYBE twice a year!

So why be so upset with our perfectly average, way overpriced health care system that is not even average for some people?

**Tarenth** · 03-04-2008, 07:22 PM

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I don't see where people think Ferris fully supports the current health care set up. To use a fun example what he's doing is looking at a statement that could say "They're burning a flag and there's a baby wrapped in it!" and retorting with "There is no baby and that's not a flag but a colorguard banner". He has been critizing the points made in the article linked in this thread necromancy with valid arguements that debunk a lot of those statements.

As for the free clinics and free dentistry? Are hospitals some all knowing entity and where did that belief come from? There is a certain amount of cooperation between hospitals, but there is by no means a full fledged networking between services. Hell, if you asked any local hospital to name off service providers in the area they'd only be able to tell you those contracted with them because they simply don't care or know about the rest. Clinics, unless they're run an an annex of the hospital, just aren't kept track of by larger medical insititutions by everyone working there. It's folly to think so. If someone asked me "Where's the nearest free clinic or free dentist" my first response would be "I don't know", second would be "Talk to your social worker", and third would be "Find out for yourself". As much as I'd like to be an all knowing entity of knowledge, I'm not and it does annoy me when people get offended that I haven't done their homework for them.

As for the providers employed in free clinics? Nurses from local groups, nursing students on internships, Emergency Physician groups, and Physcian assistants with local groups generally haunt those establishments. "Urgent Care" is a more commonly used term for those establishments though because if you used "Free Clinic" then people will come looking for free services. 9/10 times its cheaper than ED services since you don't have to pay the physcian group and for all the ED equipment. 1/10 times the services they provide in the clinic aren't enough for what you need. That's a common sense thing though. You don't go to a clinic for ED or speciality services...that's stupid. A clinic would be for simple things while the ED would deal with serious cases. Of course, we're full of stupid people so a lot of people just go to the ED because its conviently located with the hospital and take up time and room for simple urgent care treatment.

I'm getting side tracked. I don't blame our health care professionals in our sick care system. They do a good job and should be commended for it. I do blame the idiocy of our populace and the health insurance companies for those 'horror stories' that people tote around. The populace because a lot of the stories stem from stupidity and ignorance and the insurance companies because they are trying to make money like any other good company.

We have a very expensive and very average system. We have that system in that way because we wanted it that way. Changing it would be very difficult and upset a lot of things. Change is good, but the problem is in the finer details.

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-04-2008, 08:47 PM

Tarenth is absolutely right. I absolutely dont support the way the current medical establishment is run. I think it's atrocious. I think the insurance companies should be run by intelligent people that understand that people NEED medical care. I think all the lawyers who file frivolous malpractice suits should be lined up and shot, as should their claimants. I think that there should be greater access to medical care for anyone who needs it. I also think that anyone who comes into an ER should be treated within 10 minutes. I believe that people should get into medicine for the sake of helping people but not for money.

But you know what those beliefs are called? WISHFUL THINKING. I'd love to see these things happen, but they wont. I'm a realist, ladies and gentlemen. I see what I would like to happen and see what is. They are not the same thing, and no amount of whining I'm ever going to do is going to change that. So what do I do? I report what I see. I refute arguments that make less sense than they should. But nobody asked me what my actual feeling on the situation is. You all just assumed because I provided solid reasoning why certain arguments made here have been erroneous.

Through a couple hundred years of greed, arrogance and self-worship, we have created a monster that cant be broken down. The insurance companies wont go away and the rates are not going to go down. Doctors are largely powerless to stop this process and are constantly afraid of taking chances on patients in order to avoid being sued by both the patient's families and the insurance companies. Tarenth is absolutely right in that the devil is in the details. A socialized medical system in this country would cost thousands of jobs for people employed in the medical insurance industry. It would require everyone who currently works in medicine to take a HUGE paycut. It would increase wait times in hospitals from hours to days and days to months. It's just NOT feasible. Sure, its nice that so many of you out there want it to be that way, but whining about it and saying how horrible it is that we dont have it will not change a thing. Of course, our presidential candidates are all over the issue, but as all politicians, they lie to get into office. A socialized medical system has been promised by at least one of the candidates if they are elected. Ever heard the axiom "beware of Greeks bearing gifts"? It applies here directly.

My whole take on the issue isnt at all that I love the system and I support it out the wazoo. I dont. I've said that. But people who are aghast at people who would drive immense distances because they apparently cant get medical care near their home need to see the truth that it IS available if you're willing to seek it out and get it. Sure, you may have to wait, but thats the downside of prioritizing having other niceties in your life over your own well being (i.e. medical insurance). And if you think a week to wait for medical care on a non-life threatening ailment is bad? Imagine if it wasnt just poorer people who had to wait in line, but EVERYONE. Think about how long the lines would be then, and thats exactly what the chief complainants are clammoring for here with socialized medicine.

Lets address some other points here:
-people use free clinics because they cant afford to pay for medical care, or they simply dont put it high enough on their list to afford it. The latter is more common. Those that have me

03-04-2008, 08:10 AM	#152 (permalink)
Hambergler Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Age: 33 Posts: 1,059	Re: Sicko - spoilers Two months ago my friend got off the phone with his dad. He was supposed to be headed over to their house after a nap. He never made it. The next day his parents go over to his house and find him unconscious. He spent 6 weeks in a pneumonia induced coma. When he woke up the hospital asked him if he had insurance. He did not. The next day they put him in a wheel chair and wheeled him out the front door, in the rain no less. A nice cab driver took him to a public hospital. They said he still had full blown pneumonia. So St Lukes hospital put someone in the street that was completely incoherent, had no muscle strength, and pneumonia on the street in the rain. Anyone in health care that thinks this is OK should not be in the field. I wouldn't go to those free clinics for care. They have the most incompetent loser doctors. Even if I had no where else to go. Maybe for blood work or antibiotics, but thats it. What are they going to do brain surgery on me. __________________

03-04-2008, 11:06 AM	#154 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 16,806	Re: Sicko - spoilers And that's the problem, right there. Sure, we all hear stories of horrible health care, but I'm completely satisfied with mine. I can go see my family physician any time I need to. In an emergency she'll fit us in the same day (like last month when I had the flu and I finally decided that when my fever hit 106F that I needed more than just acetaminophen and ibuprofen). None of my friends or family are dissatisfied with their standard of care, either. Sure, some of them whine and bitch about the costs, but does anyone here think that socialized healthcare is somehow going to be cheaper for us middle class folks with the government in charge of it? __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

03-04-2008, 11:20 AM	#155 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,963	Re: Sicko - spoilers Of course not, the money we pay in health insurance would simply be diverted to tax money and the people in a lower economic subset who are using free methods of healthcare now, would continue to reap the same benefits. Plus, socialized medicine in the US is impossible. The insurance companies alone are multibillion dollar organizations, you think they'd volunteer to go out of business? I dont think so. Not to mention the entire medical community of this country agreeing to take a 60+% pay cut. Cant happen, wont happen. Oh and Cing, just a little friendly advice for future illness: When your temp hits 102.5, it's hospital time. Theres no over-the-counter meds that can lower a fever that high. Plus, at 104 you begin risking brain damage. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

03-04-2008, 11:58 AM	#157 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,963	Re: Sicko - spoilers What facts? We have an anecdote about people who drove 200+ miles to visit this medical expedition to receive care from an unspecified origin. So lets see, within 250 miles (since the article specified more than 200 miles), you have Charlotte NC, Atlanta GA, Birmingham AL, Chattanooga TN, Nashville TN, Lexington KY, Louisville KY, and Cincinnati OH. That covers major cities in a complete radius, all of which have free clinics. So why didnt they go there? Why choose to drive 200+ miles over something MUCH closer? Theres no struggle in that, it's simple logic. I agree that insurance companies only have one thing in mind, and yes, it is a problem, but there are an increasing number of cases in which the insurance companies are getting sued over it. One woman was denied her insurance claim when she was diagnosed with breast cancer and sued the carrier. She was awarded 9 million dollars. See the article here. So perhaps the problem isnt the medical "system" as you say, but a specific piece of it. The insurance companies just need to be smacked around some. I agree completely that the doctors should be making the decisions on patient care. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

03-04-2008, 12:08 PM	#158 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Sicko - spoilers Are there any free dental clinics? The primary character in the piece needed dental work. And that can be expensive with or without insurance. Which brings up another issue: why is dentistry a wholly seperate form of medical care, subject to different regulatory and finance issues? Why are companies likely to specifically omit oral care from many health plans? __________________

03-04-2008, 12:30 PM	#159 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,963	Re: Sicko - spoilers Yes, there are free dental clinics. As for the second question, I dont really know as I'm not on the dentistry side of things. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

03-04-2008, 06:44 PM	#163 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,528	Re: Sicko - spoilers There is no study I have seen that says Americas health care system is best in the world. The most expensive, maybe, but not the best. In most studies I have seen it is decidedly average. And I am so proud to be in the country with the most expensive average medical system that doesn't serve the entire population. My wife was kinda of surprised at the US medical system. The care she has received here is OK. No better than she received in her home country of Ecuador but much much more expensive. Also the speed at which you get attention when going to the emergency room. In her country she said that you where seen by a doctor within five minutes of stepping into the place. Of course she was also surprised at how many people where at the emergency room. For example her sister flew to Ecuador and had a surgery and stayed in the hospital for 7 days of recuperation. This was in a private room with around the clock nursing and all kinds of extras like gourmet meals. Total cost, $2300 and included everything including all medications and follow up care. Throw in the plane ticket at ~$500 and you have total cost of $2800. Her friend who got the exact same procedure here in OKC paid $7,000 and that did not include the medications or follow up care and was for only two days in a shared room. No gourmet meals by the way. And Farris, about your free clinics. If they are so great why doesn't everybody use them? They are free, right? Why pay hundreds of dollars when you could only pay nothing or a few bucks? I used free clinics while in college. They don't offer all the services a hospital does. They have very limited hours of operation. If you are a working person that cannot take off from work easily then getting to one will be difficult. They are hard to find. They are located, generally, in metropolitan areas. And I just looked in my yellow pages and did not find one. I am home sick and have some time so did a fairly thorough search. I called a few hospitals and two of them told me to contact DHS because they can't give out that information. What? One, OU medical center which is a research and teaching hospital, did provide very good information about three different ones in the area. Unfortunately all of them had a waiting list of over a week. They said if I have certain conditions (vomiting for more than two days, fever over 103 etc) go to an emergency room. On a lark I asked about free dental clinics. They had no idea about that. So I called up my old boss who's husband is a dentist. I found out that, as far as she knows, there are no free dental clinics in the greater OKC area. However there are some dentists that do free services. The waiting time for those, however, are even longer. Usually around a month. She was happy to inform me that if I was to get incarcerated all the local prisons have dentists that come in weekly. And they are free! Her and her husband both criticize the medical system because of things like this. And this morning there was a story about one of OKC's free clinics. The doctor running it said our medical system was a mess and it needed some serious work. I was reminded what it was like to be sick and poor in America. Yes, I probably wouldn't die. But the time would be stressful and I would suffer longer than somebody with insurance would. So why, Farris, are you so proud of this system? It is average, at best. Yet it costs more than just about any other medical system in the world. I am sure at the vast majority of the people actually doing the work care about the patients. But there a large parts of the system that simply do not care about anything but how much money they can make off of sick people. And these entities controls, in large part, how the system works. Every single doctor I have ever had has complained how the system works. They hate the drug companies and their practices with advertising that simply confuses the patient. They hate that they can't treat the people the best way they know how because of certain entities controlling the money. They have told this to me personally. And I only see them MAYBE twice a year! So why be so upset with our perfectly average, way overpriced health care system that is not even average for some people? __________________ Sen. Barack Obama (IL) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

03-04-2008, 07:22 PM	#164 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,148	Re: Sicko - spoilers Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I don't see where people think Ferris fully supports the current health care set up. To use a fun example what he's doing is looking at a statement that could say "They're burning a flag and there's a baby wrapped in it!" and retorting with "There is no baby and that's not a flag but a colorguard banner". He has been critizing the points made in the article linked in this thread necromancy with valid arguements that debunk a lot of those statements. As for the free clinics and free dentistry? Are hospitals some all knowing entity and where did that belief come from? There is a certain amount of cooperation between hospitals, but there is by no means a full fledged networking between services. Hell, if you asked any local hospital to name off service providers in the area they'd only be able to tell you those contracted with them because they simply don't care or know about the rest. Clinics, unless they're run an an annex of the hospital, just aren't kept track of by larger medical insititutions by everyone working there. It's folly to think so. If someone asked me "Where's the nearest free clinic or free dentist" my first response would be "I don't know", second would be "Talk to your social worker", and third would be "Find out for yourself". As much as I'd like to be an all knowing entity of knowledge, I'm not and it does annoy me when people get offended that I haven't done their homework for them. As for the providers employed in free clinics? Nurses from local groups, nursing students on internships, Emergency Physician groups, and Physcian assistants with local groups generally haunt those establishments. "Urgent Care" is a more commonly used term for those establishments though because if you used "Free Clinic" then people will come looking for free services. 9/10 times its cheaper than ED services since you don't have to pay the physcian group and for all the ED equipment. 1/10 times the services they provide in the clinic aren't enough for what you need. That's a common sense thing though. You don't go to a clinic for ED or speciality services...that's stupid. A clinic would be for simple things while the ED would deal with serious cases. Of course, we're full of stupid people so a lot of people just go to the ED because its conviently located with the hospital and take up time and room for simple urgent care treatment. I'm getting side tracked. I don't blame our health care professionals in our sick care system. They do a good job and should be commended for it. I do blame the idiocy of our populace and the health insurance companies for those 'horror stories' that people tote around. The populace because a lot of the stories stem from stupidity and ignorance and the insurance companies because they are trying to make money like any other good company. We have a very expensive and very average system. We have that system in that way because we wanted it that way. Changing it would be very difficult and upset a lot of things. Change is good, but the problem is in the finer details. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

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