Sicko - spoilers - Page 3

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-06-2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

How many of you have had to face the family of the person you watched die and tell them that their loved one wont be coming home? I get to do that several times a week.

This is completely separate from the discussion at hand but I always thought that the doctor informed the people of conditions and deaths.

Not so? Or is it decided hospital by hospital?

I ask because when my mother was in the hospital for her heart surgery none of the RNs would tell me or my brothers of her condition. They told us that was the doctors responsibility and they could not give any information related to medical condition.

Just curious.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-06-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snooggums

The real problem with the costs of health care in the US is that the poor who are the most likely to have chronic health problems because of lack of regular basic health care are the ones who cannot afford the health care they need. 200 bucks a week is still a lot for someone who only gets 1200 a month for a disability. Some states offer medical cards, but the requirements are a bit harsh, you have to make dirt to qualify. Ferris is correct about the insurance being the broken part, but here's my logic:

Insurance should not be a profit generating business. It is supposed to mitigate disaster costs, spread amongst the people who pay into it. If there is money it should be kept for future disasters, not to pay stockholders. This is why I support national health care, people should be able to get health care out of paying taxes. It should still be discounted for those who cannot afford to pay, and those who can pay more can pay more to have healthier people around them. This is one of the few things that should be supported by the government, Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (or property depending on the version). Overall it would be cheaper to have regular checkups for everyone and cut off the majority of high cost emergency health related problems.

And I will state now and let someone prove it later, the guy stitching up his own knee was most likely staged. I don't have to see the movie to know that chunky monkey does that regularly. Remember the gun being handed over by the bank teller in the gun movie? Not even close to reality.

On Moore. He is absolutely great!!!!

But they are movies. Movies. Not documentaries. I heard a recording of him when he spoke at OU. He never says anything but that fact. He never says he is revealing the absolute truth. He knows it is propaganda.

I read an article someplace where he basically said that these movies are his artistic view of the world. He believes them to be correct views. He hopes that others will see them and follow his vision.

I personally find them very entertaining and inspiring.

The Bowling for Columbine movie where the bank has a gun raffle. It may have been staged but I know that those things do happen. I found it nostalgic because it reminded me of my home town.

So you can't take them as fact. What you can do is view them as an art form that can inspire you to find the facts. To question the status quo. To view the world a bit differently. To become aware of other view points.

Of course if you are a die hard conservative you will do well not to puke.

**stickyjeans69** · 07-06-2007, 10:40 PM

Now, first off i have seen some disturbing comments in this thread.
people comparing doctors for dirty jobs to those cleaning sewers. whatever.

Doctors and Nurses make alot of money for a couple of reasons. they work VERY hard to get into their positions.

A NURSE at the LEAST has to have an associates degree. then four years of medical school. i dont know about you. 6 years of school after graduation isnt fun. and it's expensive.

Doctors go to school for what may seem forever. 8-15 years depending on what branch they plan to work in. if i went to school for 15 extra years. i would expect at least 250,000 a year in my career. my time is worth something to me.

The world revolves around money. go to the store and try to buy a 1.00 can of coke with 50 Cents. they'll tell you sorry your **** out of luck.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-06-2007, 11:03 PM

Ok, to answer the flurry of stuff that cropped up when I was gone:
-Gringo, yes, the clinics are either subsidized by government funding or by private corporations. The $200/day does cover tests, treatments and full care. If it's short term extended care (like you know you're going to be there for a week or something), they also allow you to set up a payment plan. Not the prettiest of things, but this is why it pays to get an education, followed by a decent job that can afford you insurance.

-No, I'm not downplaying any of the other dirty jobs (and by the way, I love that show). But on top of it being a gruesome job, it's a skilled job. I think if you did a check, most of the guys at sewage treatment plants make good money. In addition, they have astronomically good health care (one of my buddies is a waste sanitation technician in tampa) because of the "bacterial" nature of their job. As far as working in a slaughterhouse, I can understand that its gruesome as well, but I dont think it's on par with medicine and other professions skill-wise.

-As far as the nurses in OK, are they RN-BSN's (meaning they have a bachelors in nursing)? Because theres a HUGE pay difference between someone with just their RN and someone who has a degree. Also, it entirely depends on the hospital you work for and what department you work in. For example, I work in the ICU. I get paid more than the nurses down in radiology. I also do about 3x the work. Private hospitals often pay better than public ones do. So yeah, its a matter of market, but with the current market and nurses being in such short supply, theres absolutely no reason to settle. It's like any other job, competitive. For example, say you're a computer programmer and some small gaming firm offers you 60k a year to work for them in your home town. Then Bungie calls and offers you 120k to move to say, seattle, and work for them. Who are you going to work for? Same with medicine.
EDIT: A lot of people dont know this, but when you get your nursing license, most states are a part of a compact agreement that allows you to practice in them (ex: if i get my license in florida, theres lots of other states that I can practice in because they recognize my license). So moving around isnt an issue.

-To answer the direct question, yes, if we only got paid what the low-end of the socioeconomic spectrum could afford, medicine would fold up and die. The reasoning is simple: we have to live too. Examine the cost of my day for the hospital in my previous post. Even if you completely cut out my pay, it's close to 500 dollars for one day. Now, do you think the average person could afford 500 dollars a day in a hospital? Not likely. However, if nurses and doctors got paid 40k-60k a year to do what they do after being in school for up to 8 years and accruing sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, how many people do you think would take the job? Not many, and those that did are generally the ones that didnt accrue any debt cause they already have the money.

-No, in a completely economically driven society such as ours, there has to be a way to subsidize costs. Thats the government and insurance industries, as you said. But, thats subsidizing costs, not interfering with the quality of care. Everyone has to eat, from the patients on up to the trustees.

-I dont necessarily agree with a socialist healthcare system such as the one canada has. It has its merits, but if you read as many medical journals and sucha s I do, you'd know that canada keeps one out of every 15 medical graduates and 1 out of every 12 nursing graduates for the simple reason that they can immigrate to the US hassle-free and make gobs more money. Theres always somewhere or someone who is going to pay well and people will seek it out.

-The "messenger" deal. It's complicated. Different places have different laws about it. Some states say that only doctors can deliver the unfortunate news, others leave it up to the county or city. In orlando, it's up to the hospital or system. At my hospital, you have to take a counseling course and pass a battery of tests before they will give you the form to sign that allows you to tell people. I've actually had a lot of people tell me that it's better to hear it from the nurses since we spend about 5,000,000,000% more time with patients than doctors do. I guess its more comforting to hear it from someone the family thinks was a friend of their loved one than some doctor who only spent a short time with them and didnt know them at all.

Lastly, you guys spoke of greed. ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. I'll fully admit that I'm greedy. Greedy as hell. I busted my hump to get where I am. I went through an insanely intense and ball-busting collegiate career to get here. I worked hard after graduation and pimped myself out for the best job I could get my hands on. I got myself a nice high standard of living. I like my standard of living. I think I should be allowed to keep it.

So tell me where the logic lies in that I should have to give up what I worked my ass off for because some chump who works at mcdonalds (because he's a high school dropout and never made the strides to un-screw his life) is too poor to afford medical insurance? How does that make sense?

Really guys, is the problem the medical industry or is it the people who cant afford the insurance? You cant feed me any garbage about "oh, well, some people just cant get better jobs because of *insert excuse here*" It doesnt fly. One of my best friends from high school is a paraplegic from a dirt poor family. When he was a freshman, his transportation around school was literally a wooden table with wheels on it that his brother pushed around. You know what he does now? He uses ocular interface technology to write programs for apple. He makes 200k+ a year. Anyone with the drive and motivation can get a good job and make a decent life for themselves. There's no valid excuse for not doing so other than being lazy. So why should people who worked their asses off to get where they are have to suffer economically because of lazy people? We shouldnt, but people seem to think we should because they wrongly feel sorry for the "underprivileged". THAT is the problem.

FatCobra · 07-06-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreGooder

Ferris,

Let me understand this correctly. You believe that because your job can be greusome that you should make 6 figures? How 'bout the guy cleaning the traps at the sewage waste facility. Would you want his job? How 'bout the guy that has to slit the throats of thousands of cattle every day at the meat packing plant. Think he makes 6 figs? (sidenote: I worked in a slaughter house for two summer breaks. It was disturbing to watch)

People who clean the sewers don't have to go to college for 6+ years to do it.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-06-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickyjeans69

Now, first off i have seen some disturbing comments in this thread.
people comparing doctors for dirty jobs to those cleaning sewers. whatever.

Doctors and Nurses make alot of money for a couple of reasons. they work VERY hard to get into their positions.

A NURSE at the LEAST has to have an associates degree. then four years of medical school. i dont know about you. 6 years of school after graduation isnt fun. and it's expensive.

Doctors go to school for what may seem forever. 8-15 years depending on what branch they plan to work in. if i went to school for 15 extra years. i would expect at least 250,000 a year in my career. my time is worth something to me.

The world revolves around money. go to the store and try to buy a 1.00 can of coke with 50 Cents. they'll tell you sorry your **** out of luck.

What is so disturbing?

That people questing the amount of money the medical profession makes? We are not allowed to question that? Especially since this is largely out of consumers hands yet does affect the consumers wallet?

I guess we could slow the demand for health care if we decided we didn't want to get sick any more. That could decrease costs for a bit.

There is a large portion of the medical industry that pushes people to spend more money than they need to.

All I am saying is this is not a can of Coke or an iPod we are talking about. It isn't something most people can just decide they do not need. It isn't something that we pay directly for either. It is hard to shop around for the best price on health care. Especially since we consumers don't even know the price.

If it sounds like I am attacking the individual working in this business then I apologize. I am not attacking them. I am attacking the whole system.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-06-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

What is so disturbing?

That people questing the amount of money the medical profession makes? We are not allowed to question that? Especially since this is largely out of consumers hands yet does affect the consumers wallet?

Therein lies the problem I described. Sure, you're allowed to question it, but what gives people the right to say we should make less money because some people cant afford it? Was that my problem when I started college with this goal? No. Is it my problem now? No. Sorry to sound uppish about it, but it's the truth. Theres no reason that we should have to suffer a lower income because other people cant get themselves taken care of. Read extended justification in previous post.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-06-2007, 11:54 PM

@Ferris

As I said I am not attacking you or any health care provider as an individual. I have never had anything but positive experiences with any doctor or nurse I have dealt with.

It is the system I have a problem with.

This goes for the 60+ hour weeks. I don't want a tired or burned out person taking care of me.

This goes for the insurance industry. It, as an industry, doesn't care if me or mine is well taken care of. And as a free enterprise it really shouldn't. It should only care about it's bottom line. That is a BIG problem.

Add to that the pharmaceutical industry that does provide very important drugs and also tries to game the system to increase its profits.

The fact that some people do have to rely on the emergency medical instead of a regular doctor. That reliance makes all of us pay more.

You have mentioned it a couple of times but the fact is the medical industry treats everybody but not everybody is treated the same. Once they get to you, you and your colleagues may very well treat them equally and to the best to your abilities, but the system decides which people you get to treat. You do not. And often doctors also do not.

There are also some unsavory decisions that have to be made. I have heard that 33% of all medical costs are incurred during the last three months of life. Is this practical? Is their a time to give up and die? Should doctors play a role in this decisions?

Comes around to assisted suicide. Nobody wants to talk about it but could it not only provide a better death for those who choose it but also reduce overall costs?

Should we have less emphasis on extreme measures used to extend lives?

Do specialty doctors need to make as much money as they do? Is their pay propped up by legalities or things outside market forces? There are very good specialty doctors in other countries that get paid much less. Many of them trained right here in America. Why? How much of this pay is simply one doctor wanting to be paid more than others in his field? If it has nothing to do with the ability to live a comfortable life then my insurance rate are higher to satisfy this persons ego. Screw that. (Unless it is my family member that needs this egotistical jerks skill. Then all you other suckers can pay out the nose.)

It is difficult, no doubt. Probably why we have more discussion about Paris and her jail time.

Another by product of Americas desire to avoid all things even remotely intellectual.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-07-2007, 12:05 AM

I agree with you and dont take anything you're saying personally. Trust me

The problem with the movie is it tries to make the medical profession look evil. Well, as we've discussed, it's rarely the physicians and more than likely the insurance and its regulations. But there are an almost infinite number of reasons why the system is messed up that the movie doesnt address. How about hypochondriacs who take rides in an ambulance and go to the ER 2-3 times a week when theres nothing really wrong with them physically? What about people that make prank calls to EMS services and waste time that could be spent saving peoples lives? There's natural disasters, charity work, pro bono hours, privitization of hospitals, hospice care, government subsization during crisis, changing health care needs, field breakthroughs, pharmaceutical companies, suppliers, the list goes on and on! These are all things that contribute to making medicine expensive.

I like the questions you're asking gringo, and a lot of them are very valid questions that cant really be answered by any one person or even any group of people.

But the big thing is as far as doctors and other health care professionals go, sure, theres a lot of us who have charity at heart and go to work in other countries for little to no money and aid good causes and such like that. But a lot of us have the same thought I do: we busted our butts to get here and because we're among the few that actually make it, it's time to reap the rewards (monetarily). Granted, part of that statement is why we have so few doctors and medical professionals: it's HARD, ridiculously so, and the vast majority of people who start doing it never finish school, and even after graduation theres about a 50% attrition rate. So those that are left standing work long hours. But we cope, and theres always LOTS AND LOTS of coffee around!

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-07-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Therein lies the problem I described. Sure, you're allowed to question it, but what gives people the right to say we should make less money because some people cant afford it? Was that my problem when I started college with this goal? No. Is it my problem now? No. Sorry to sound uppish about it, but it's the truth. Theres no reason that we should have to suffer a lower income because other people cant get themselves taken care of. Read extended justification in previous post.

Because we all need it. And I would say that all deserve it. They may not be able to afford it temporarly. Maybe in ten years after they get their life together they can afford it. So they die before they get started in life? A child suffers because their parent is in the middle of college and has no insurance? Yes, your pay is more important than the health of a child.

Your income is due to insurance. Not due to peoples ability to pay. Very few people could afford to pay medical costs as they stand now. If your pay was based upon peoples abilty to pay you would be getting much less. And there would be much fewer in your profession.

And why shouldn't your pay be affected by what people can or will pay? Everybody elses pay is. My pay is. Why are you so special?

So... You say that healthcare is just fine. The insurance industry is the whole problem. The insurance industry, by spreading costs out, makes sure individuals within the system make more than what the average consumer of health care could support. Then you claim that your pay should not be affected by what the average conusmer should be able to pay?

Think about it.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-07-2007, 12:41 AM

See, thats the key ingredient that you're missing in the argument you make gringo, the people you speak of have no sense of responsibility.

I'm 25, single and have no kids. I'm in college as a graduate student, work as a nurse full time and I have medical insurance. If someone is in college and they decide to have a child, the need to be prepared to deal with the adult consequences of that. They need to make sure the child is taken care of and provide insurance. Every college I've ever seen has both individual and family health care available through the university. If someone chooses to ignore that, then theyre simply not being responsible.

Responsibility is a huge factor here. You have to be responsible for yourself. You have to be responsible by your family. This means making sure that they all have the proper care theyre going to need.

So realistically, there should be no sacrifice when a mother is in college. He child has plenty of opportunities to have insurance if she lives up to the responsibility of getting it in place. After all, the child cant fill out the forms or file a claim. That's the parents job.

Put it this way, I have two neighbors, both in college at 18, both work at olive garden as waiters and barely scrape by with bills. But they have medical insurance through their employer while they go to school. So I fail to see how it's hard to get. From the time I was 15 and started working until now, I've never had an employer who didnt offer it either free or at a very small percentage of my paycheck. Seems worth it to me, but then again my life is something that I consider to be of great value.

And while I dont know what your profession is and while it may well be effected directly by the laws of supply and demand as you say, the vast majority of jobs out there are not. When designing the xbox 360, do you think the guys at microsoft were getting paid based on what microsoft projected the demand to be based on the price they were going to set? No. They got paid what microsoft paid them because thats what they signed on for. When a concept designer for a major car company designs a car that gets used in a movie and subsequently shoots the market for the model through the roof, does he see a huge pay increase? Probably not. But what about the workers in the factories that make those cars? Not a chance.
Most jobs are not effected by what people can or will pay. They're functions of cost, speculation, profits and investments. If people's pay was directly effected by what people were willing to pay for something, then every price on everything would be negotiable and no new business would ever succeed because nobody would work for an employer who refused to pay them until he turned a profit.

And yes, the people in the medical profession make a good deal more money than what the average consumer could support, and like you said, it's supported by the insurance industry. But if you have the same insurance as me and I'm in medicine and you're not, we still get equal treatment, no matter how much money either of us makes. All they care about is that little insurance card in your wallet.

The way our society functions today, with the sole exception being the basic aspects of life itself (breathing, living, etc.), nobody is entitled to anything, you earn have to earn everything. You earn the right to speak your mind by learning to express yourself coherently through speech, typing, writing, or other communication. You're entitled to a good job because you worked to get it. You're entitled to the benefits of that job because you work hard at it.
But the key to getting any of that is the fact that you have to earn it. Nothing comes free. TANSTAAFL. But people want one anyway.

So until society changes to a point in which we all do things for the common good, you're not going to see a medical industry that functions based on the needs of the people. You might see one that struggles and limps along based on the needs of the people, but it will eventually fail. Why? Because we're all greedy. Every last one of us. All of us want better, but none of us want to give up any little piece of what we have to get it. Human nature.

**MoreGooder** · 07-07-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Lastly, you guys spoke of greed. ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. I'll fully admit that I'm greedy. Greedy as hell. I busted my hump to get where I am. I went through an insanely intense and ball-busting collegiate career to get here. I worked hard after graduation and pimped myself out for the best job I could get my hands on. I got myself a nice high standard of living. I like my standard of living. I think I should be allowed to keep it.

So tell me where the logic lies in that I should have to give up what I worked my ass off for because some chump who works at mcdonalds (because he's a high school dropout and never made the strides to un-screw his life) is too poor to afford medical insurance? How does that make sense?

Yeah..... Hummm.... I busted my balls for my Electrical Engineering and Physics degrees. What do I have to show for my work? Well, I have accomplished many things, such as a US patent and many happy customers enjoying the equipment that I have designed.

With all that I have accomplished, what I don't have is a some false of entitlement just because I had to work my ass off to get where I am today. I get paid what my industry will tolerate, just like yours does.

The bottom line is just to obvious. The medical care industry's primary driving factor is greed. You can't argue around that, no matter how hard you try.

Oh yeah. "Human nature". Let me ask you a question: Is it human nature to lend aid and assistance to people just as much as it is to seek material goods? Which one is more important to society? Your personal wealth, or the health of countless millions. Your use of "human nature" is nothing more than blatant rationalization for your own greed.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 07-07-2007, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

See, thats the key ingredient that you're missing in the argument you make gringo, the people you speak of have no sense of responsibility.

I'm 25, single and have no kids. I'm in college as a graduate student, work as a nurse full time and I have medical insurance. If someone is in college and they decide to have a child, the need to be prepared to deal with the adult consequences of that. They need to make sure the child is taken care of and provide insurance. Every college I've ever seen has both individual and family health care available through the university. If someone chooses to ignore that, then theyre simply not being responsible.

Responsibility is a huge factor here. You have to be responsible for yourself. You have to be responsible by your family. This means making sure that they all have the proper care theyre going to need.

So realistically, there should be no sacrifice when a mother is in college. He child has plenty of opportunities to have insurance if she lives up to the responsibility of getting it in place. After all, the child cant fill out the forms or file a claim. That's the parents job.

Put it this way, I have two neighbors, both in college at 18, both work at olive garden as waiters and barely scrape by with bills. But they have medical insurance through their employer while they go to school. So I fail to see how it's hard to get. From the time I was 15 and started working until now, I've never had an employer who didnt offer it either free or at a very small percentage of my paycheck. Seems worth it to me, but then again my life is something that I consider to be of great value.

And while I dont know what your profession is and while it may well be effected directly by the laws of supply and demand as you say, the vast majority of jobs out there are not. When designing the xbox 360, do you think the guys at microsoft were getting paid based on what microsoft projected the demand to be based on the price they were going to set? No. They got paid what microsoft paid them because thats what they signed on for. When a concept designer for a major car company designs a car that gets used in a movie and subsequently shoots the market for the model through the roof, does he see a huge pay increase? Probably not. But what about the workers in the factories that make those cars? Not a chance.
Most jobs are not effected by what people can or will pay. They're functions of cost, speculation, profits and investments. If people's pay was directly effected by what people were willing to pay for something, then every price on everything would be negotiable and no new business would ever succeed because nobody would work for an employer who refused to pay them until he turned a profit.

And yes, the people in the medical profession make a good deal more money than what the average consumer could support, and like you said, it's supported by the insurance industry. But if you have the same insurance as me and I'm in medicine and you're not, we still get equal treatment, no matter how much money either of us makes. All they care about is that little insurance card in your wallet.

The way our society functions today, with the sole exception being the basic aspects of life itself (breathing, living, etc.), nobody is entitled to anything, you earn have to earn everything. You earn the right to speak your mind by learning to express yourself coherently through speech, typing, writing, or other communication. You're entitled to a good job because you worked to get it. You're entitled to the benefits of that job because you work hard at it.
But the key to getting any of that is the fact that you have to earn it. Nothing comes free. TANSTAAFL. But people want one anyway.

So until society changes to a point in which we all do things for the common good, you're not going to see a medical industry that functions based on the needs of the people. You might see one that struggles and limps along based on the needs of the people, but it will eventually fail. Why? Because we're all greedy. Every last one of us. All of us want better, but none of us want to give up any little piece of what we have to get it. Human nature.

You didn't answer the question. You stepped around it.

You don't want your pay determined by what the average person can pay. But your pay is in fact subsidized by persons that never use your product.

You are wrong in one aspect. Microsoft employees are supported by what the consumer will pay. Not for a particular product but by the sum of all products. Microsoft made its billions by selling actual products. Just because it has money to burn and can pay it's xbox employees more than what the product makes is irrelevant. It is a strategy to loose money now so that it can gain a share in a market. That is Microsoft's business.

And you are equating a persons health with an xbox? Wow.

I don't go to Microsoft when I am worried about my very life. Microsoft adds value to my life (snicker) they don't actually keep my life viable.

Now you did bring up a point that we probably do basically disagree upon. I think there are things that are basic to a persons life. And I think there are things that are basic to a countries strength. Health care is one of them.

Having a country that is unhealthy is not good for the country. Having a country that is spending a high percentage of it's assets on health care and still being sick is even worse. Having a country whose people are going into bankruptcy because of health care costs is not good.

And of course you bring up the "personal responsibility" card. The last bastion of those that want to protect what they have. Because you can always say "It is their fault, let them eat cake!"

Ok. I play your game. People have a kid and they both have a job. Neither job provides health insurance. Many don't, you know. Neither has skills that allow them to gain a job that provides insurance. Many don't, you know. Neither have the intelligence to gain the skills but they have a good work ethic. They are good people.

You say they should not have a child? OK. They didn't want a child because of their situation. They use protection but nothing is 100%. What now? Abort it! Kill that sucker!

Or they don't have a child and they don't have a job that provides insurance. Many jobs don't, you know. One gets sick and goes to the hospital for care. Now they can't pay for that care. They claim bankru

07-06-2007, 10:40 PM	#33 (permalink)
stickyjeans69 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: California Posts: 705	Re: Sicko - spoilers Now, first off i have seen some disturbing comments in this thread. people comparing doctors for dirty jobs to those cleaning sewers. whatever. Doctors and Nurses make alot of money for a couple of reasons. they work VERY hard to get into their positions. A NURSE at the LEAST has to have an associates degree. then four years of medical school. i dont know about you. 6 years of school after graduation isnt fun. and it's expensive. Doctors go to school for what may seem forever. 8-15 years depending on what branch they plan to work in. if i went to school for 15 extra years. i would expect at least 250,000 a year in my career. my time is worth something to me. The world revolves around money. go to the store and try to buy a 1.00 can of coke with 50 Cents. they'll tell you sorry your **** out of luck. __________________

07-06-2007, 11:03 PM	#34 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,972	Re: Sicko - spoilers Ok, to answer the flurry of stuff that cropped up when I was gone: -Gringo, yes, the clinics are either subsidized by government funding or by private corporations. The $200/day does cover tests, treatments and full care. If it's short term extended care (like you know you're going to be there for a week or something), they also allow you to set up a payment plan. Not the prettiest of things, but this is why it pays to get an education, followed by a decent job that can afford you insurance. -No, I'm not downplaying any of the other dirty jobs (and by the way, I love that show). But on top of it being a gruesome job, it's a skilled job. I think if you did a check, most of the guys at sewage treatment plants make good money. In addition, they have astronomically good health care (one of my buddies is a waste sanitation technician in tampa) because of the "bacterial" nature of their job. As far as working in a slaughterhouse, I can understand that its gruesome as well, but I dont think it's on par with medicine and other professions skill-wise. -As far as the nurses in OK, are they RN-BSN's (meaning they have a bachelors in nursing)? Because theres a HUGE pay difference between someone with just their RN and someone who has a degree. Also, it entirely depends on the hospital you work for and what department you work in. For example, I work in the ICU. I get paid more than the nurses down in radiology. I also do about 3x the work. Private hospitals often pay better than public ones do. So yeah, its a matter of market, but with the current market and nurses being in such short supply, theres absolutely no reason to settle. It's like any other job, competitive. For example, say you're a computer programmer and some small gaming firm offers you 60k a year to work for them in your home town. Then Bungie calls and offers you 120k to move to say, seattle, and work for them. Who are you going to work for? Same with medicine. EDIT: A lot of people dont know this, but when you get your nursing license, most states are a part of a compact agreement that allows you to practice in them (ex: if i get my license in florida, theres lots of other states that I can practice in because they recognize my license). So moving around isnt an issue. -To answer the direct question, yes, if we only got paid what the low-end of the socioeconomic spectrum could afford, medicine would fold up and die. The reasoning is simple: we have to live too. Examine the cost of my day for the hospital in my previous post. Even if you completely cut out my pay, it's close to 500 dollars for one day. Now, do you think the average person could afford 500 dollars a day in a hospital? Not likely. However, if nurses and doctors got paid 40k-60k a year to do what they do after being in school for up to 8 years and accruing sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, how many people do you think would take the job? Not many, and those that did are generally the ones that didnt accrue any debt cause they already have the money. -No, in a completely economically driven society such as ours, there has to be a way to subsidize costs. Thats the government and insurance industries, as you said. But, thats subsidizing costs, not interfering with the quality of care. Everyone has to eat, from the patients on up to the trustees. -I dont necessarily agree with a socialist healthcare system such as the one canada has. It has its merits, but if you read as many medical journals and sucha s I do, you'd know that canada keeps one out of every 15 medical graduates and 1 out of every 12 nursing graduates for the simple reason that they can immigrate to the US hassle-free and make gobs more money. Theres always somewhere or someone who is going to pay well and people will seek it out. -The "messenger" deal. It's complicated. Different places have different laws about it. Some states say that only doctors can deliver the unfortunate news, others leave it up to the county or city. In orlando, it's up to the hospital or system. At my hospital, you have to take a counseling course and pass a battery of tests before they will give you the form to sign that allows you to tell people. I've actually had a lot of people tell me that it's better to hear it from the nurses since we spend about 5,000,000,000% more time with patients than doctors do. I guess its more comforting to hear it from someone the family thinks was a friend of their loved one than some doctor who only spent a short time with them and didnt know them at all. Lastly, you guys spoke of greed. ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. I'll fully admit that I'm greedy. Greedy as hell. I busted my hump to get where I am. I went through an insanely intense and ball-busting collegiate career to get here. I worked hard after graduation and pimped myself out for the best job I could get my hands on. I got myself a nice high standard of living. I like my standard of living. I think I should be allowed to keep it. So tell me where the logic lies in that I should have to give up what I worked my ass off for because some chump who works at mcdonalds (because he's a high school dropout and never made the strides to un-screw his life) is too poor to afford medical insurance? How does that make sense? Really guys, is the problem the medical industry or is it the people who cant afford the insurance? You cant feed me any garbage about "oh, well, some people just cant get better jobs because of insert excuse here" It doesnt fly. One of my best friends from high school is a paraplegic from a dirt poor family. When he was a freshman, his transportation around school was literally a wooden table with wheels on it that his brother pushed around. You know what he does now? He uses ocular interface technology to write programs for apple. He makes 200k+ a year. Anyone with the drive and motivation can get a good job and make a decent life for themselves. There's no valid excuse for not doing so other than being lazy. So why should people who worked their asses off to get where they are have to suffer economically because of lazy people? We shouldnt, but people seem to think we should because they wrongly feel sorry for the "underprivileged". THAT is the problem. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long Last edited by Ferris Bueller; 07-06-2007 at 11:14 PM. Reason: clarification on a point.

07-06-2007, 11:54 PM	#38 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,564	Re: Sicko - spoilers @Ferris As I said I am not attacking you or any health care provider as an individual. I have never had anything but positive experiences with any doctor or nurse I have dealt with. It is the system I have a problem with. This goes for the 60+ hour weeks. I don't want a tired or burned out person taking care of me. This goes for the insurance industry. It, as an industry, doesn't care if me or mine is well taken care of. And as a free enterprise it really shouldn't. It should only care about it's bottom line. That is a BIG problem. Add to that the pharmaceutical industry that does provide very important drugs and also tries to game the system to increase its profits. The fact that some people do have to rely on the emergency medical instead of a regular doctor. That reliance makes all of us pay more. You have mentioned it a couple of times but the fact is the medical industry treats everybody but not everybody is treated the same. Once they get to you, you and your colleagues may very well treat them equally and to the best to your abilities, but the system decides which people you get to treat. You do not. And often doctors also do not. There are also some unsavory decisions that have to be made. I have heard that 33% of all medical costs are incurred during the last three months of life. Is this practical? Is their a time to give up and die? Should doctors play a role in this decisions? Comes around to assisted suicide. Nobody wants to talk about it but could it not only provide a better death for those who choose it but also reduce overall costs? Should we have less emphasis on extreme measures used to extend lives? Do specialty doctors need to make as much money as they do? Is their pay propped up by legalities or things outside market forces? There are very good specialty doctors in other countries that get paid much less. Many of them trained right here in America. Why? How much of this pay is simply one doctor wanting to be paid more than others in his field? If it has nothing to do with the ability to live a comfortable life then my insurance rate are higher to satisfy this persons ego. Screw that. (Unless it is my family member that needs this egotistical jerks skill. Then all you other suckers can pay out the nose.) It is difficult, no doubt. Probably why we have more discussion about Paris and her jail time. Another by product of Americas desire to avoid all things even remotely intellectual. __________________ Sen. Barack Obama (IL) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

07-07-2007, 12:05 AM	#39 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,972	Re: Sicko - spoilers I agree with you and dont take anything you're saying personally. Trust me The problem with the movie is it tries to make the medical profession look evil. Well, as we've discussed, it's rarely the physicians and more than likely the insurance and its regulations. But there are an almost infinite number of reasons why the system is messed up that the movie doesnt address. How about hypochondriacs who take rides in an ambulance and go to the ER 2-3 times a week when theres nothing really wrong with them physically? What about people that make prank calls to EMS services and waste time that could be spent saving peoples lives? There's natural disasters, charity work, pro bono hours, privitization of hospitals, hospice care, government subsization during crisis, changing health care needs, field breakthroughs, pharmaceutical companies, suppliers, the list goes on and on! These are all things that contribute to making medicine expensive. I like the questions you're asking gringo, and a lot of them are very valid questions that cant really be answered by any one person or even any group of people. But the big thing is as far as doctors and other health care professionals go, sure, theres a lot of us who have charity at heart and go to work in other countries for little to no money and aid good causes and such like that. But a lot of us have the same thought I do: we busted our butts to get here and because we're among the few that actually make it, it's time to reap the rewards (monetarily). Granted, part of that statement is why we have so few doctors and medical professionals: it's HARD, ridiculously so, and the vast majority of people who start doing it never finish school, and even after graduation theres about a 50% attrition rate. So those that are left standing work long hours. But we cope, and theres always LOTS AND LOTS of coffee around! __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

07-07-2007, 12:41 AM	#41 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,972	Re: Sicko - spoilers See, thats the key ingredient that you're missing in the argument you make gringo, the people you speak of have no sense of responsibility. I'm 25, single and have no kids. I'm in college as a graduate student, work as a nurse full time and I have medical insurance. If someone is in college and they decide to have a child, the need to be prepared to deal with the adult consequences of that. They need to make sure the child is taken care of and provide insurance. Every college I've ever seen has both individual and family health care available through the university. If someone chooses to ignore that, then theyre simply not being responsible. Responsibility is a huge factor here. You have to be responsible for yourself. You have to be responsible by your family. This means making sure that they all have the proper care theyre going to need. So realistically, there should be no sacrifice when a mother is in college. He child has plenty of opportunities to have insurance if she lives up to the responsibility of getting it in place. After all, the child cant fill out the forms or file a claim. That's the parents job. Put it this way, I have two neighbors, both in college at 18, both work at olive garden as waiters and barely scrape by with bills. But they have medical insurance through their employer while they go to school. So I fail to see how it's hard to get. From the time I was 15 and started working until now, I've never had an employer who didnt offer it either free or at a very small percentage of my paycheck. Seems worth it to me, but then again my life is something that I consider to be of great value. And while I dont know what your profession is and while it may well be effected directly by the laws of supply and demand as you say, the vast majority of jobs out there are not. When designing the xbox 360, do you think the guys at microsoft were getting paid based on what microsoft projected the demand to be based on the price they were going to set? No. They got paid what microsoft paid them because thats what they signed on for. When a concept designer for a major car company designs a car that gets used in a movie and subsequently shoots the market for the model through the roof, does he see a huge pay increase? Probably not. But what about the workers in the factories that make those cars? Not a chance. Most jobs are not effected by what people can or will pay. They're functions of cost, speculation, profits and investments. If people's pay was directly effected by what people were willing to pay for something, then every price on everything would be negotiable and no new business would ever succeed because nobody would work for an employer who refused to pay them until he turned a profit. And yes, the people in the medical profession make a good deal more money than what the average consumer could support, and like you said, it's supported by the insurance industry. But if you have the same insurance as me and I'm in medicine and you're not, we still get equal treatment, no matter how much money either of us makes. All they care about is that little insurance card in your wallet. The way our society functions today, with the sole exception being the basic aspects of life itself (breathing, living, etc.), nobody is entitled to anything, you earn have to earn everything. You earn the right to speak your mind by learning to express yourself coherently through speech, typing, writing, or other communication. You're entitled to a good job because you worked to get it. You're entitled to the benefits of that job because you work hard at it. But the key to getting any of that is the fact that you have to earn it. Nothing comes free. TANSTAAFL. But people want one anyway. So until society changes to a point in which we all do things for the common good, you're not going to see a medical industry that functions based on the needs of the people. You might see one that struggles and limps along based on the needs of the people, but it will eventually fail. Why? Because we're all greedy. Every last one of us. All of us want better, but none of us want to give up any little piece of what we have to get it. Human nature. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

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