CingularDuality

I remember reading a bunch of news articles a few years back about Canadians that were coming to the US to pay for health care because their system has so many problems. And I personally know of an Englishman that comes to the US for dental work.

That's the bottom line. Socialist healthcare will primarily benefit those that are unwilling to take care of themselves in other ways. Personal responsibility is becoming rarer and rarer.

Can anyone tell me how in the world health insurance or socialized medicine would be cheaper for routine health care? I understand that most of us have it in case something major happens (just like the reason for car insurance or homeowner's insurance), but why are we using it for routine stuff? Why don't we just pay the doctor directly?

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

snooggums

Because a lot of people can't drop the 40 bucks for a doctor's visit for a basic yearly checkup. These yearly checkups would avoid a lot of costly, debilitating illnesses later in life. Overall it would be cheaper.

Kerostasis

If they cant drop $40 once a year for a checkup, they cant drop $40 per month for insurance either, and thats really CHEAP insurance.

Insurance will always be more expensive than your annual checkup. The only way to get those people into the doctors office is if you and I pay for it instead. And I'm quite happy paying for my OWN doctors visits, I don't need to be paying for the doctors visits for everyone else in the country as well.

__________________

snooggums

Yeah, why the hell do I have to pay for roads I don't use or the sewer lines to other people's houses? What a ripoff since all it does is spread the cost to help everyone out with basic needs.

CingularDuality

But nobody helped me pay for the road that leads to my (and 6 other people) home. Likewise, I don't expect anyone to help me pay for MY doctor visits!

Freeways? Everyone can use 'em and most individuals could never afford them. Police? Everyone can use 'em and most individuals can't afford their own. Schoolteachers? Everyone can use 'em and most individuals can't afford their own. Nobody but me can use my healthcare plan, and most people can afford to pay for their own healthcare.

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

Kerostasis

When it comes right down to it, I wouldn't mind the government funding everyone to get their once annual checkup, because thats pretty cheap and very economically efficient in terms of dollars spent for health benefits gained.

But thats pretty much it. When the government starts stepping in and telling you how to pay for and when to get all sorts of other more complicated, more expensive, and more personal procedures, I want nothing to do with it. The private market can handle that far better than government can.

__________________

jaymind

I'm going to throw my .02C in the hat here since I am in the medical field and I have been for 10 years now as either a clinical microbiologist or in IT.

For some to say that most in the medical profession are greedy is just plain wrong. I've rarely met RN's, Med Techs, or doctors that are greedy. They are all very high stress jobs that require a lot of dedication, and while I damn well know that there are specialist doctors out there that are in it for the money I have never, not ever, met a family or internal med doctor that was.

Healthcare is expensive, and nationalizing it is not going to change that fact, except it's going to push the cost to taxes instead of out of our employers pockets. There is a reason why it is so easy to recruit medical professionals from Canada to come work in the US (I hired 4 Med Techs for my lab from Canada in 2 years time because their is a incredible shortage of them across the country right now) because they didn't have to give up 50% of there pay check to the government.

On the other hand, I do believe the government should provide for basic health coverage for every single person in the US and provide a way for those that can't afford more complex procedures to "borrow" against some fund. It would basically be expanding the Medicare system (which also needs a thorough cleaning up of).

And for those of you that think hospitals are greedy, please take a look at the percentage of patient's that cycle through a typical not-for-profit hospital that are covered by Medicare and what that means to the bottom line of those hospitals. The % of Medicare patient's in my hospital system this past year was over 70% (inpatient stays) and Medicare pays what it pays.

Most healthcare systems in the US spend a considerably amount of time and money to remain competitive in the Medicare market they find themselves in; which means that they have to run as trim as possible to turn any profit. And, any profit they do turn gets thrown right back into the system for upkeep and upgrades, which are badly needed to stay competitive.

snooggums

The road to your house (private community?) is to national highways as plastic surgery is to healthcare. Everyone needs roads and healthcare, not everyone needs a driveway or plastic surgery (my second car is parked on my public street). If you don't have a private community then you could have worked with your local government to pay for those roads. You still use public roads to get to work though right?

You are already paying for the poor people's health care through emergency response by firefighters and policemen since they cannot afford regular care but still have emergencies, through emergency room visits (the hospital has to get the funds from somewhere to cover the ones who cannot pay) and through the cost of disability or welfare for those too ill to work. The mentally ill are the ones who lose out the most in the pay to play medical world, either family supports them or they often become homeless because they are not stable enough to work. If the majority of people can afford health care now, and are already paying for the people who cannot, making it nationally funded for basic care (not plastic surgery) would cover everyone for the same cost, and people could still have privately paid for care from private doctors who have the same quick turn around for the wealthy as we have now. Just like public and private schools, police and private security guards/body guards and private roads for driving.

CingularDuality

I was using my grandfather's situation to make a point. The street that he lives on is in the county, will never be improved by the county, floods out a couple times a year, etc... It's a public street, though. They paved it a couple years back with their own money.
I just don't want my tax dollars going to some therapist that is treating someone because they are having dominance issues with their dog or something. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I just think this is a horrible, horrible idea.

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

Kerostasis

@Snoogums:
You seem to assume that you can change who digs into their pocket to pay for something, while not changing any other attributes of the market. That requires, in addition to ignoring basic economics, the naive view that the government could do everything for the exact same cost as the private sector already does.

When has that EVER been true of any venture?

__________________

snooggums

I stated it would be cheaper for care because of the reduced amounts of emergency services that are a result of not seeing a doctor regularly. I have never stated the costs per service would stay the same or be cheaper. Insurance companies pay for a "free" yearly checkup because it costs them less overall, I just want this for everyone.

I work in public service and a lot of the time failing to get basic health care service or the cost of an accident can drive whole families into poverty and this happens on a regular basis. The overall goal is the health of the people of the country. Sometimes things cost money to the people who don't directly benefit. This is one of the few things that should be funded by the public.

I'm advocating basic health care not elective therapy. I've also only mentioned the mentally ill once, and it was for people who are too mentally or physically ill to work. This could include people with schizophrenia, severe depression and dementia. I am not advocating elective therapy or plastic surgery (other than cancer caused deformation type stuff).

Hambergler

What the hell? This is not about dollars and cents. This is about letting people die on the steps of a perfectly good hospital because they cannot pay. There are things more important then money. My friend had a son born with down syndrome, guess what he cannot get insurance for the kid no matter how much he pays. Being born with down syndrome usually is accompanied with all kinds of other disorders. He had to start a corporation and pay himself a few hundred dollars a month just to get Medicaid. So maybe the kid doesn't have to lose a lung. Is anyone so soulless that they are going to say that this is the cards they were dealt and they should live with it because of so and so money. Thats Bull****. Healthcare should not be the luxury of people who are healthy, but a basic human right of the people who are sick.

I personally know doctors with 30 car garages, Lear jets, Four Ferrari's. Sorry they are making too much damn money, I don't care how long they went to school. Do you want someone making medical decisions for you with money as a motivation. My uncle is a surgeon, he is on disability for a benign tumor in his hand. His disability check alone is 20k a month! For the rest of his life if he wants. Where do you think this money is coming from? My pocket.

I quit my job a few months ago and the cobra coverage was $800 a month for a single healthy person. Damn the torpedoes, but I think the government needs to step in here. I think Drs incomes should be capped at say 200k. (How many Ferrari's does one person need? And it will also keep the vampires away) And the insurance companies need to be appropriated to trying to deny peoples hail damage claims, not making life and death medical decisions.

__________________

MoreGooder

Well, I'm not sure how we can legally cap anyone's income. The medial care industry needs to be changed from within, but this can be encouraged with legislation and improved market competition.

For instance, the government could easily change patent laws for any medicine so that generics could be obtained in a shorter time. Even though pharmco's will be crying, they'll still be crying on their way to the bank. Loss of patent rights in a shorter time would be the same for all of the US competitors too, so they would not be at a marked disadvantage. One issue would be competition with non-US firms however.

There needs to be a cultural change in the medical insurance system. I think grass roots effort will result in at least one company reaching out to be more humanitarian, and make their system closer to non-profit. Alternatively, a special non-profit tax status could be arranged for medical insurance companies. In exchange, they would have to follow strict guidelines for benefit payout and pre-existing condition coverage. While private medical insurance companies could still exist, they would be forced to compete with a non-profit competitor, and would need to either reduces profit margins or find other ways to add value to the consumer's choice.

Yeah, Cobra is very, very, very broken. It needs to be scrapped and something else put into it's place. How 'bout free health insurance for 6 months after loss of employment, paid in full by your previous employer. Call it a government mandated severence agreement if you like.

And yes there are doctors and nurses out there that are not and never have been in their field because of the cash. We need MORE of those type of people.

We need doctors, nurses, hospitals, pharma's and insurance corporations that view themselves as providing a necessary and vital public service. That doesn't mean they should live in shacks. That means that the market should force them into a more humble lifestyle. Here's an example: Remember the internet boom in the late 90's? Software engineers, web designers, IT specialists were raking in rediculously overpriced salaries. The boom ended, and so did their extravagant lifestyle. It wasn't justice. It wasn't because they were evil. It wasn't because they only had an associates degree from ITT tech. It was because the market changed. That's what needs to happen in the medical industry, from top to bottom.

__________________


Sometimes I feel like 2/3'rds Rice Krispies. Past "Snap" and "Crackle" but just shy of "Pop"!

MoreGooder

Oh, and I should mention: The existence of non-profit hospitals is surprising to me. I had no idea they existed. Are they non-profit for everyone that walks into them? If so, why aren't ALL hospitals non-profit by law? Why would a hospital need to turn a profit? Earnings could be turned into building and facility improvement efforts, or how 'bout this: an endowment. Interest off of the endowment would then be used to for facility and service improvements. The same endowment would even help the stock market.


Jaymind, perhaps your specific hospital is unique. Can you explain more about how they operate? Why can't every hospital run that slim and trim?

__________________


Sometimes I feel like 2/3'rds Rice Krispies. Past "Snap" and "Crackle" but just shy of "Pop"!

CingularDuality

You've never seen a municipal hospital? University hospitals? General Hospital? That would be a non-profit.


I can only think of one for-profit hospital, and that was Kaiser Permanente's hospital in San Diego. The vast majority of hospitals are non-profit.

__________________

Become a