El_Gringo_Grande

I am not sure tort reform would do much for this. I use to think it would also but it appears that in states that have enacted such reform it hasn't done much to reduce costs. The critics that I have heard say it does help the doctors out so that they can keep more of their money.

Even that stuff didn't really convince me. I still kinda feel that it has to help a little. But one local (in Oklahoma) very vocal person is backing off some with that. He still hates the idea somebody gets rich off of a legitimate medical mistake (and so do I) but doesn't talk so much about how it would affect costs. Personally I don't know but it is a rather small percentage of all costs.

Another thing we could do about R&D is put more money into government supported research (and university research programs). Discoveries could be used by anybody to produce the drugs. Of course nobody get super rich off this plan so it will go no-place.

Right now more and more research money is going over seas to foreign countries because it is both cheaper there and because of the general anti-intellectual attitude in this country and the government.

And has anybody seen the stories about people going on vacations to places like India to get major surgeries done like hip replacements? What I have seen is that those doing this are pretty happy with the results. The cost is a fraction of what they would have paid in the US. Even with the cost of the trip thrown in. And many of the doctors and nurses where trained in the US.

I guess that is one option. Off-shoring health care.

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Sen. Barack Obama (IL) For President '08
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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

Chewy

Why? Because you're not a Christian? That's just as offensive.

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xanathemax

because Christians usually care about helping the poor and not using violence and forgiveness and all those sorts of things

Acts 2:44-45 (King James Version)
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Chewy

You're serious, right? We may need another thread about this... help us all.

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xanathemax

Well, those aren't my words. If you've got an issue with them I'd suggest taking it up with your local pastor, or perhaps consider a change of faith.

Chewy

That was too ignorant to comment to, but I can't help myself. My dad is actually a pastor and I grew up in a Christian home. Am I more holy than though? Of course not, nor do I think I know the Bible from cover to cover or believe I'm the next coming of Christ. But I do know a thing or two about war and what the Bible has to say about. Now that aside...

The Bible speaks of many wars, wars that God did in fact allow and condone. God said not to murder (Exodus 20:13) and the original text of the Bible (Hebrew) explains that word to literally mean "the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice".

God often required the Israelites to go to war with other nations, including the Canaanites so that they could occupy Canaan, the promised land (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). Samuel told King Saul to go to Amalek and completely annaliate the Amalekites. The army of Israel was in war against the Philistines when David met the challenge of Goliath and slew him. There were countless other wars that God gave the Israelites approval to fulfill. During this whole time of war remember, those people were living under the Law of Moses, which included "Thou shalt not kill" from the Ten Commandments. As a Christian, one knows that God did not or would not ever command, condone or agree to anything that would contradict is very own Law.

Shall we look at the commandment a little bit closer? Of course we should, thanks for asking!

As I basically stated earlier, not all killing is "murder". War does result in loss of life, that's a given... but it would not be considered murder. Capital Punishment, still used today, was used throughout the Old Testament. It was used for things like violating the Sabbath (Numbers 15:30-36). Commit adultery and you were stoned to death. These kills were not condemned, as not all were.

Now, to apply this a little more to today's terms, as far as "Well who says the government is right?", that is in fact a great question. God does. Romans 13 (Paul speaking here) makes it clear that the government is ordained by God and that to resist the government is resisting God. God gives the government the right to conscript its citizens to fight in wars when it deems war necessary. If our country had not gone to war in 1941, the world as we know it would have most likely fallen to tyranny.

These aren't my words either, xanathemax... these are the words of God and the Bible. If you disagree with what I have written, I can't help that. You wanted to debate what the Bible said, though had nothing but a shallow verse taken out of context to prove your point. If you would like to discuss this further, start a new thread and I will be happy to join.

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xanathemax

Well, my major point was about selling possessions and helping the poor and working toward a more egalitarian society, since this is a thread about healthcare first and foremost, and you didn't really address the point of the verse I quoted, about giving to those who have need.

Chewy

Half of your quote, as I bolded above, is not in any way (at least in the way you have stated it) related to the health care debate. In any event, if you feel President Bush isn't a "Christian" because of some intentional, personal vendetta against people getting health care, then let's discuss that also. If that's not your point, then please state your point.

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xanathemax

Yeah, that's pretty much my point, that the right-wing leadership in this country (which includes, incidentally, the Clinton family as well as the Bush family) has done nothing but bad things for poor people, and thus couldn't really be described as devout.

I anxiously await your rebuttal.

Chewy

Well I'm off to bed soon, so I don't have the time right now to do anything more lengthy but I will leave you with 3 questions.

1.) How did the Clintons get bunched in with this?

2.) What facts (and I mean facts, including actual stats, bills, etc.) do you have that neither the Clintons or Bushes have done anything positive for poor people?

3.) Are you in fact speaking about poor people and health care or just poor people in general?

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xanathemax

i can't post links so i can't give you the statistics but just google economic disparity in the united states and you'll see what i'm talking about

gunjunkie

Wow, we went from Michael Moore to the Coulteresque, "Jesus wasn't no wussy" line of arguing pretty quickly there...

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Do or do not, there is no try....
-- Yoda, Dagobah

Sirusblk

I find it funny, the people that say Micheal Moore is completely one sided and unfair probably watch the O'Riley factor and think he's giving everyone a fair view. Anyone else find this funny as well?

I've never seen any of Micheal Moore's stuff. However I think we should have free health care. I think we should move towards a socialist government.

Go ahead call me a communist all you want

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Ferris Bueller

Actually, he is completely one sided and unfair. HE freely admits it. His movies are just that: movies, not documentaries.

Everyone has a bias. Theres no way around it. We all have predilections and viewpoints that have been influenced over time by our experiences, our teachers and our peers. Nobody on earth can claim to have a completely unbiased opinion as it's absolutely impossible.

However, if this thread is going to continue, I think that everyone involved needs to step back, re-read whats been written and focus on the topic. We're quickly spiraling down paths that ought not be taken.

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Chewy

Hence why I slipped that in there... the statement that rarely works once things start to go off topic... it would be nice for once to see people start new threads for new debates.

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