Vulcan

Started up this thread.

One problem that i really have with this map and I know disciple is going to curse me but It creates an objective problem. The hostages spawning in the armory.

This creates a situation where it's better for T's to not guard them and try to wait for the CT's to go in and then go after them. This really is not conduscive to playing objective.

Staying in the area is impossible since you can not see into the vents and be shot from multiple angles up there while being flanked from the front. So anyone with a brain will not sit in that hostage area IMO which kinda kills the whole point of putting hostages there.

The rest of the map I like a lot this is pretty much my only problem with the map.

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† Disciple †

Curse you, however you are right with your statment. Then again

Kismayo = I will choose to wait in the broken room next to the back set over sitting in the room with the hostages.

Backalley = I will choose to sit on the stairwell next to the hostage room rather than in the room with them.

Articstorm = I will sit in the garage under the window rather than sit in the control room with the hostages.

Parkhouse = I will wait in the kitchen over the front room which holds the hostages in plain view of a gaint window.

Hacienda = I will sit on the back roof top of the house rather than inside the bedroom with the upstairs hostage set.

Siege = I will sit in the side hall next to the armory over the Armory its self.


I would not call my behavior in any of those situations as off objective. In all of those spots I can hear the enermy approching the hostages and I can hear them if they tag the hostages, I can even be looking at the hostages in a flick of my mouse wheel. In every hostage map there are times when it is better to not sit on top of the hostage. If a hostage room has two entrances or more into it then it is tactically better to put yourself out of the sight of as many of those entrances as possible while still keeping an eye/ear on the objective. Choosing these locations gives me as the defender back my edge which I lose due to the attacker knowing exactly where the hostages are.


If we were to make hostage maps where this tactic was not the best approch then all maps would have one way in to the hostage room and would become a very boring exercise to play.

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Vulcan

The difference here is that the CT's have an inaccessible spot where T's cannot go plus you can not see them up there which makes the whole room very undefendable or even approachable.

The other places you mentioned are very different in that respect.

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whistler

I've never been impressed with a map where the T's have to search out the hostages. It's a waste of time, and realistically this would never happen.

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Skylark

I agree with that, whistler. (esp on water treatment, but that's another subject/post).

I've tried the last 2 times I was a terrorist to guard the armory, and died every time without seeing the CTs. The only way is to sit in the little hall between the garage and the armory.

Additionally, one T could be in with the hostages, but you're begging to be flashed and killed.

Ideas that could help.
Remove the last 1 or 2 holes in the vents. That could(?) allow a T to sit down in front of the armored cars and not get shot from a dark and hidden location.

Don't let CTs turn off the lights above the hostage room. Would allow us to see them.

Remove the vent in the roof of the hostage room. That would force them to come in/drop down and allow the Ts to hide/camp inside there.

Any/some of these might make it a bit more manageable.

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sam1610

I've always believed the map was better off when the armoury set wasn't fenced up so the Ts could hide on the roof and get in the vents. With no way to get in vents and no where to hide that armoury set is nearly impossible to defend.

You spawn right next to both possible top sets so it should take under about 5 seconds to figure out where they are.

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Potshot

I've got to agree here. It would be one of my favorite maps if it wasn't for the armory problem. It's almost impossible to hold of against even the worst players. The times I've seen armory held of successfully can be counted with the fingers of one of my hands. But when I don't end up as the designated sacrifice in the armory, I've got to say few maps can challenge this one.

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sparhawkxx

I wouldn't say your off objective at all but on Seige or if you have a full team and you allow the tag There is a vent in the armory right above the hostages How many times must that be stated. In all those other maps the CT's have to atleast go through your teamates or you have a straight line of fire.

This is not the case on Seige. And as a CT that has to first tag then rescue the hostages you as a T should not allow the tag. The most important thing here is your putting the hostages in danger by allowing then attacking CT.

I really and truely believe the map is even now. Get in there and guard the hostages. Weaken the CT the best that you can and just don't send all of the T's in there to die. This is where control needs to take place.

If you open the top of armoury for T's its OVER JOHNNY! You think its uneven now? With the top open T's have a large advantage. Other then seeing through the doors and the vent glitch this map is fun as hell as is. My opinion.

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FUN FUN

Snake_Doc

i disagree with everone here. this is the map that my sqaud played on in our match against E1. i hope that disciple will agree with this, with the perfect placement of players in the armory, being ONE IN with the set like i thought the rules stated, one by the apc front headlight watching vents (you know there up there when the light turns off and the vents break) and one by sewar steps. i know that there were a couple of hostage kills when we played but the main fact is that with a seffeciant force in the armory and skilled people in the gearge.....there IS a fighting chance of keeping the hostages and in the case that everyone dies hopefully your team has taken out the majority of the people that went to the armory, thell have a hard time estracting them if they go through sewar or the geraged b/c of the sniper!!

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Kulmar

I know we shouldn't allow the tag... but its putting someone at risk. I've guarded inside the hostages many times, and been successful once I believe.. and that was with luck because they didn't flash. If anyone stayed near the APC's, all I hear is a dink from the vents and they are dead. It is very hard to guard the vents from below, unless you see the glimmer of their goggles.

If you guard all the exits, then theirs no way out, and they are not in really any danger of being rescued, right?

I would much rather, as disciple said earlier, to take place outside the armory, and make it impossible to leave. Have one or two on the stairwell, and you know they cannot be rescued. Sure they can be tagged and run around in circles all day, but it isn't going to get their objective done.

I don't know about the vent glitch, and how much is it an advantage of to see through a door which wouldn't matter if you were to get popped by a guy in vent? Or on top of armory? They go black in the darkness, and its impossible to see..


How is it that the guy by the APC did not get picked off in the vent? They can go along the vent without you knowing, and easily take him out... then you just double flash the hostages and you are good...

Just my 2 cents.

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sparhawkxx

Kulmar your going to be in harms way if you are a Terrorists holding hostages. Thats the name of the game. Out of 7 people that are part of a team you are telling me 1 of you can't watch that room? Really?

Rang had that room as best he could and had backup from Assualt and I. There was 2 other players involved 1 helping Assault watch sewers and Assault coming up that hall and doing his part in killing more CT's with no mercy at all.

Either stopping there advance cold or eliminating most of their team before the rest of T's finished CT off in the office. Yes beautiful if the T's can end the round in that room but if we can't you get your second chance in the office.

Also I wanted that room but Rang like a stuborn devoted T would not let me have it. My hat is off to him. The garage also helped bigtime in this by picking off the CT trying to flank the back hall of the armoury from their garage. And when they tried to smoke garage our guys just blasted and flashed them with nades. If their is a ribbon in this statement it goes to how devoted Rang and Assualt was at stopping those advances.

In my opinion I wish the map could stay the same. If you don't like it just take it here like ya'll have been doing don't complain in game. Try first.

In these disscusions I know we don't see eye to eye but these tactics work and I'm glad to share them just like you.

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FUN FUN

Kulmar

Sure Spar. You can actively guard the room, but most of the time you are just going to get beat down... never really see anyone guard it successfully like you said. I just find it that it is easier/causes less deaths when you guard the hostages from the doors and trap em in.

Two tactics to holding the hostages inside the room... and not outside running. Whats so different about that...?

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Vulcan

actually what might help is taking out the lights in the armory where the vehicles sit. That would give The room a more defensible feel to it eh?

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Potshot

The fact still stands that you are required to pretty much sacrifice one player. You have to be able to survive if loosing people when you make your plan, but here you are required to lose a man. I'm not saying I don't like this map, I'm not saying it's uneven. I think it's very even. But I'd still like to walk into the armory without knowing I'd lose die in there. I'd at least like to know I'd have some backup, but as it is now, anyone who has a clear view into the armory has an even harder time staying alive than me. The only thing that has worked even moderately well so far is 2 people in the armory, but even that works well once or twice for the surprise, the shock value.

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Kulmar

Yeah, or any of Skylark's suggestions

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