Re: Team Stacking - A TG server exclusive?

**Superfast** · 10-10-2007, 01:30 PM

I've seen team stacking being a problem other places (example 2142 squadplay server) and different games earlier in my life. It's simple. People prefer to play with certain people. People enjoy eachothers company and experience. They want to win and have fun, resulting in preferences. Love comes from the same thing.

There's two choices as i see it about team stacking:

1. Leave it to this community to sort it out. On BF2142 when the teams were uneven, the more experienced players took responsibility and changed sides.
2. You can use the admins to randomize teams. You can maybe script team limitations etc.

I actually have faith in 1. As TF2 grows up people will take on this responsibility, just like they did on 2142, and earlier games i bet.

And about the whole "being TG" debate you got going and my view.

TG is a community of people that focus on games, teamplay, fun and playing mature in short. There are different rules to each games which we've found out for each game by trial and error and experience (and/or others ways). This will come to TF2 as well, we just need to play with it more and find and agree on in these forums how we will play TF2 the TG way. Everything will be debated and we'll find the best solution. Don't we always?

Also, as players get more experienced they will learn the less experienced ones and set an TG example about how they believe it should be played and how they remember and perceived it taught to them. Sure, it might be different from some of the other TG'ers, but in the grand scheme we will all agree on it. That's why we will all have different opinions on what TG really is. Now lets all get together, play games and have fun and unwind on our servers. Now.

**TheFeniX** · 10-10-2007, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by BHack

The reasons are mainly that, in this particular game, I want to A. Rocket Jump B. Hurt myself for medic uber C. Cuss D. Play with my internet friends without a 3rd party complaining and dealing with the ensuing e-drama.

The first two of these are acceptable at TG because Rocket Jumping is part of the balance for the soldier class and I haven't seen a noticeable affect of early uber that I thought I would see.

Cussing is not going to be ok on any TG server because many people come to TG to get away from that kind of attitude. It's not about being too young to handle "bad words." It's about just not wanting to see it and deal with the attitude. I've never once seen someone's inability to drop F-bombs detrimental to their enjoyment of a TG title.

A lot of good comments were brought up and when admin tools are available, I plan to look into changing the way auto-balanced is worked. The problem is right now, it's on/off. Even teams or uneven teams. And having auto-balance off would be far worse than having it on.

**Sirusblk** · 10-10-2007, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Cussing is not going to be ok on any TG server because many people come to TG to get away from that kind of attitude. It's not about being too young to handle "bad words." It's about just not wanting to see it and deal with the attitude. I've never once seen someone's inability to drop F-bombs detrimental to their enjoyment of a TG title.

A lot of good comments were brought up and when admin tools are available, I plan to look into changing the way auto-balanced is worked. The problem is right now, it's on/off. Even teams or uneven teams. And having auto-balance off would be far worse than having it on.

I for one like the no cussing rule. It filters people out in my opinion. Those people that only show up to cuss and pick fights online are only there for that. They don't want to play as a team, they're there for themselves and when you're online it's not a single player experience.

Do you think it's ok to just walk up anywhere cuss in someones face and talk down to them? I'd certainly hope not. Why do we allow the same in multiplayer games.

Now occasionally I've been in a game on TG where something absolutely ridiculous happened and someone cussed but was silently forgiven. He/She expressed the feelings of our team at the time and we all knew it was a lapse in forethought. It's ok.

I have no problem with this supposed "Team Stacking" I've always had a fellow TG player even if we were on the losing side. There is an auto-balance system in place it will shuffle the players around if it gets too uneven between rounds. If you honestly can't stick through a losing round then sorry don't play video games in the first place.

As for IHS, if you want play with each other, if you absolutely must it's not a problem to me. We don't have a system preventing you from doing so. If everything is way too unbalanced then the auto-balance will step in and move you around. IHS aren't going to be playing on the same side for long unless it's completely balanced.

Also I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you're on the 7th pick one side, and if you're the 3rd pick another. If you have two IHS competing against one another it's as ideally balanced as it's gonna get.

I'm not crying foul, let the record show that. I have no problem with the server right now, no one else should in my opinion.

Also all this time we've been crying foul it's been in BETA! It's finally hitting the market today. Give Valve a week to make changes to their Auto-Balance system before you cry foul on TG.

TG is a community to supplement games. To create the perfect, ideal environment for everyone, not just the individual.

P.S. I don't think we give pubbies enough credit. There are pubbies that are certainly better than than us, I know I'm one that falls on the short chain. Why do we say a side without TG isn't fair. They usually give us a run for our money.

**TheFeniX** · 10-10-2007, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

Also all this time we've been crying foul it's been in BETA! It's finally hitting the market today. Give Valve a week to make changes to their Auto-Balance system before you cry foul on TG.

I doubt they will. Most devs stick with simple server cvars. It's generally the mod community that handles the advanced stuff. Kormendi and I are keeping up to date with their progress by the day.

P.S. I don't think we give pubbies enough credit. There are pubbies that are certainly better than than us, I know I'm one that falls on the short chain. Why do we say a side without TG isn't fair. They usually give us a run for our money.

We were all public players at one point in our career at TG. I don't think anyone here bought a Supporting Membership based solely off the name. We have to make the public player's stay enjoyable as well as the SMs because no game can really stand at TG with SM support alone. You have to be able to draw in public players without sacrificing TG ideals.

**CingularDuality** · 10-10-2007, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Beatnik

The same "all or nothing" perception applies here. Frankly, the only people that think that IHSs "play exclusively together" are those that aren't on the server. It's this erroneous "all or nothing" perception that keeps getting promoted in the forums - that because we want to play together, we ONLY want to play with each other, and not with anyone else.
...But go through the forum posts the past couple weeks and you'll see a consistent pattern. People with precious few hours in game making broad generalizations about the supposed conduct of people in-game, putting allegiances to their squad above competition in game. Which, again, is not the case.

You're falling victim to your own argument. The "forum posts the past couple weeks" were to discuss a single incident (that I know of) involving an IHS member that refused to join the team that needed a player because he wanted to play with his squad. To my knowledge, it hasn't happened since then. To me, I feel that bringing the issue up in the forums and discussing it has solved that problem without any need for a formal rule, or any other intervention on the part of the admins. I think that players will police themselves and realize that such actions are selfish and not in the best interest of a successful server. Unfortunately, some folks seem to have taken personal offense to the discussion and seem to think that everyone is out to get the In House Squads. I'm not sure where this is coming from, but I've seen nothing to support those views.

Bottom line is that team balance has been an issue and needed to be discussed. And it appears that the discussion has solved the problem on the server, but hurt people's feelings in the process.

**Pheoni** · 10-10-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Apophis

[snip]

I use IHS to model my idea as it seemed a way of narrowing down the people you prefer to play with. It wasn't meant to imply that IHS are the end all and be all of teaming up. I'm not here to discuss the merits and flaws of IHS in this thread.

Originally Posted by Apophis

[snip] I guess we should go easy on them and allow them to do their own thing rather than asking them to maybe consider the rest of the community and help show newer players what TG is all about. We'll get rid of the philosophy rather than asking people to follow it.

I explicitly stated that we are to "share the |TG| love". I want to make it very clear that this system should be for the enjoyment of all... SM, Non-SM, and Pubs alike.

Originally Posted by Apophis

[snip]

The cause of thread hijack. Please take the IHS reform issues else where. While semi-relevant, it really deserves a thread of its own. My idea can be IHS independent.

Originally Posted by Apophis

With all this said, your proposal does sound interesting as it balances out the players across the two teams. But I don't want to end up with a situation where all the public players are on one team and a single IHS is on the other leaving the public team with potentially no leadership, teamwork, or structure.[snip]

Sure, easy enough with some if|then logic. If |TG| players > 7, and all |TG| are from |TG-87th| then split the IHS between both sides. Well it would be a bit more complicated to actually code, but it's doable. As I said, the idea is to share the TG love and take away the hassle of trying to get to the same side as your friends. It's not meant to be perfect. You won't always get stuck together or stay together. But if your playing with your IHS mates 3 games out of 4 or 5, your are more likely to just trust the system and play the game. Win win all around I say.

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

[snip]Bottom line is that team balance has been an issue and needed to be discussed. And it appears that the discussion has solved the problem on the server[snip]

Seeing as I don't play TF2 yet, I'll take this statement as fact. I'm glad that play balance has been resolved. I specifically didn't post this thread here because I didn't want to get wrapped up in this mess. Now if everyone will kindly take the thread hijacking to their own new thread and discuss the suggestion I have proposed, that would be great.

I'm sorry this is such a touchy issue and people's feelings have been hurt. Hell even I have some thought as to why this is, but I refuse to comment on it here because I really don't want this thread to be the place to quip about it. I really think this could be a great idea, but no one has really commented on it because they're talking about something else entirely.

Seriously, please don't overshadow my idea by hijacking my thread with IHS issues.

**Augustus Gloop** · 10-10-2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pheoni

Seriously, please don't overshadow my idea by hijacking my thread with IHS issues.

Don't be offended that this has happened. The IHS issues are at the core of what TG imagines itself to be at the moment. Your idea is startling and fresh, and I have no doubt that people will discuss it seriously. The problem is you've placed your shiny new idea down near a landmine. It's unreasonable to expect people to discuss this rationally right away, and don't feel like your idea is being attacked, because if nothing else you've provided new mental tools for thinking about the situation. Keep contributing, and try and understand where all the emotion is coming from.

**Pheoni** · 10-10-2007, 06:22 PM

I do understand (to the extent a new member can) where the emotion is coming from. I apologize for being harsh and defensive. I have had bad experience with problems like this, outside of TG.

I just don't want people to associate the negativity of the IHS issues with my idea because of the proximity. That and I was excited to see 16 posts in the morning after waiting all night for a reply. I was upset to read them all and not only not see excitement and support for my idea, but to see it practically ignored.

No matter, what's done is done. I've done /my/ bit of venting and I'm back to anticipating peoples eventual excitement and support for my idea. I like making people happy. ^_^

**Lorax74** · 10-10-2007, 06:56 PM

I'll weigh in and say that on some days I enjoy playing against my fellow IHS members as much or more than I do playing along side of them. It makes the game that much more exciting and TeamSpeak that much more interesting (and colorful).

Just something to keep in mind.

**Chewy** · 10-10-2007, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Bottom line is that team balance has been an issue and needed to be discussed. And it appears that the discussion has solved the problem on the server, but hurt people's feelings in the process.

Correct, you are. And I would hope that we are old enough and mature enough to move on in a forward-thinking way without feeling self pity for ourselves.

**Pheoni** · 10-10-2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lorax74

I'll weigh in and say that on some days I enjoy playing against my fellow IHS members as much or more than I do playing along side of them. It makes the game that much more exciting and TeamSpeak that much more interesting (and colorful).

Just something to keep in mind.

We could do squad days and/or anti squad days. For example, on Wednesdays and Sundays we could split IHS as much as possible. Once you write the logic for one, it's usually easy to go and reverse that logic.

**CingularDuality** · 10-10-2007, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Pheoni

I really think this could be a great idea, but no one has really commented on it because they're talking about something else entirely.

Heh... Sorry for jumping on the hijack.

I think your idea is great, and I think it would help ensure that the teams are closer to being balanced so that folks DO get to play on the same team as their buddies!

The only problem that I see is the script. I know nothing about that stuff, so I have no idea if it's feasible or not. It would be really cool if the script could recognize any tags (so visiting clans could also benefit), but I bet it would be a lot easier if there were simply a list of tags that the script looked for...

I also like the idea of reversing the logic on occasion. If the 7th and the 3rd are on the server a lot, there might be players that NEVER get to play on each others' team unless the script logic is reversed. I would not support anything that forces certain people to not be able to play on the same team all the time.

**Sirusblk** · 10-11-2007, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I also like the idea of reversing the logic on occasion. If the 7th and the 3rd are on the server a lot, there might be players that NEVER get to play on each others' team unless the script logic is reversed. I would not support anything that forces certain people to not be able to play on the same team all the time.

I've kinda got a better solution in my opinion. If you don't agree with it that's fine by all means. It's mearly an opinion.

How about a time limit to just throw you on to a team auto-picked. The only foreseeable problem is that newbies will want to watch the movies and the fact that they can't would seriously be damaging.

It allows those that want to play with their IHS or with their friends to do so but without the expense of those staying in Spectator mode or supposed Team Stacking. Worst comes to worst you can always join them next map cycle.

Cing said this already but to reiterate, if we force IHSs to play together than they won't be able to play with other squads.

**Axis of Eeevil** · 11-08-2007, 06:06 PM

Some tips for getting really good ideas within a small discussion group: based on 140 cumulative years (my grandfather, my father and I) of creative problem-solving. Grandfather started a business that is now a worldwide company (Synectics, Inc); Dad went private and used to get about $1000 per day working with Fortune 500s. I help people for free!

The best creative collaboration begins when ideas are not evaluated within the idea-generating phase, but rather ideas are used as "springboards" to make leaps to new ideas built off some aspect of the original.

It is important during this phase to use language that facilitates creativity and connection-making. Using the words "I wish" "What if" and "How to" to phrase a comment or idea facilitates idea generation.

Such phrases as, "That wouldn't work because", "We can't because", "That's impossible" and "That's not realistic" impedes creativity. There is no exit from those statements; they don't allow creativity to do it's thing. This is why many "brainstorming" sessions end up rehashing the same problem with the same solutions and the same reasons it cannot be solved using those solutions.

First of all, think of problems as concerns. If there is a concern or challenge within an idea, use the phrase "How to" to frame your concern:

"How can we achieve the same effect within the confines of our current programming language?"

VS.

"We can't do that, the programming code doesn't have a term for that action."

Pay attention to the implicit, rather than explicit, idea--the "idea behind the idea". e.g. "I wish all my CDs fit on one disk" = I want to listen to any of my CDs wherever I want, without carrying a whole bunch of junk.

It's very hard to suspend judgment of an idea's merits, but the evaluation phase should come later, once a good "crop" of ideas with varied approaches and concepts is produced. In a RL consult, this phase would be guided by the client (Apo + Admin team) and the "hired" facilitator.

I'm going to copy this post to the General Forum for future reference; I'm willing to answer questions and expand on the Synectics creative problem-solving methodology there.

Hope this helps.

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