Re: TF2 Update 12/20/07

**Beatnik** · 12-22-2007, 02:16 PM

Yeah sap then stab is how it should be done. Since it takes two hits to desappify the sentry, you're much better off sapping first.

**IanTheRed** · 12-22-2007, 03:54 PM

worst update ever.

Super charging uber during round set up effectively removes another aspect of teamwork that develops before the game is played. As a Medic I tend to stick with the people who were smart enough (or good enough at the game) to hurt them selves to get me uber. Now I can heal any swinging d!ck and get uber but there is no Doctor Patient bond to develop and therefor even less teamwork. This means also that every clueless medic can now start with an uber not just the ones who are smart enough to get the soldiers and demos on his team to grind the uber for them which means there is even less to differentiate good medics from average ones.

Uber pausing was an advanced tactic that set good medics apart from the crowd. As a medic who used this tactic quite often I can tell you with confidence that removing the ability to pause uber severely reduces the Medics depth and fun. We used to be able to trick people into walking into an uber, we used to be able to save our selves and our patients from certain death and then turn around and do something useful for our team by saving the rest of the uber until we needed it, we used to be able save wasted ubers when our patient decides to go AFK as soon as we uber them, we used to be able to switch to needle gun to kill the spy thats waiting behind us for uber to run out so they can back stab us and then return to our uber patient. Not any more. Its not like the ability to pause ubers was imbalanced either, you couldn't heal any one else while your pausing uber = fair and balanced.

**TheFeniX** · 12-22-2007, 09:12 PM

So, the second update broke reserved slots again. I have fixed them. Just an FYI.

**Sirusblk** · 12-23-2007, 12:33 AM

I agree with Magna, I think crippling spys like that is horrible. You want to talk about teamwork, what about those spys that only kill hunt? I think a rogue spy sapping a sentry speaks more of teamwork then a spy running off to kill a bunch of people.

Sappers were getting knocked off like crazy before the update why make it easier? Granted as an engineer I'll be happier, but I don't want to see an army of spys running around for kills.

I prefered the idea of spys only sapping and not backstabbing players. It promotes a more tactical game in my humble opinion.

Also I hope that Valve makes that medic "glitch" a feature. It was an advanced tactic that was rarely used and like people have said before not game breaking.

How about some more maps Valve? And not more "fixing what isn't broken"?

**Beatnik** · 12-23-2007, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

I prefered the idea of spys only sapping and not backstabbing players. It promotes a more tactical game in my humble opinion.

How does removing a tactical option make a class or game more tactical?

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-23-2007, 09:40 PM

Sap and Stab doesn't work half the time anyway, because if you can't get behind the engineer in 0.2 seconds, the sapper is broken before your stab registers (assuming it registers at all) and then you explode before you can switch to sapper because the guns seem to have no trouble doing anything but actually release bullets while sapped.

**CingularDuality** · 12-23-2007, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Beatnik

How does removing a tactical option make a class or game more tactical?

Not that I care about this particular argument, but in general: if an option encourages only one style of play due to its effectiveness, then sometimes removing that option will result in more tactical play overall.

**BigGaayAl** · 12-24-2007, 01:13 AM

I really like what they did to the spy and the guns (the rockets firing faster).

I thought it was a lot too easy to kill of sentry guns. They are almost worthless on th eTG server as is if you don't have some kind of backup.

Running through the lines as a spy isn't difficult, and you can try it several times before the engi can get his gun and dispenser all built.

It is furthermore not the case that you need a spy to kill a gun. a demoman or an uber takes them out easily.

As it was the best thing an engi could do was put down good teleports. A pity for such a nice looking sentry to be nearly useless.

Allowing for some defense makes for a more varied gameplay imo.

**Sirusblk** · 12-24-2007, 04:22 AM

If they increased the damage the revolver did, and maybe tweak it's accuracy up a bit more I'd be happy. I thought the whole idea of TF2 was to have all classes feel needed at any given time. I see spys going for backstabs and nothing else. Spys are for getting behind enemy lines and disabling the enemies' resources. After they've sapped everything then they can backstab all they want.

TF2 dangerously flirts with the idea of just sending wave after wave of bodies at the enemy. We should not encourage such gameplay. We should play it safe, and spys are the class the flirts with the notion of flinging body after body. Isn't it better to sap everything and get out alive undetected than to score a backstab or two before being killed? The points on the scoreboard reflect this (A Successful Sap > A Backstab).

Bottom Line: I want to see spys used as an essential class. The only one to infiltrate enemy lines undetected and disable enemy resources. Not just a rambo class of how many backstabs can I line up.

**BigGaayAl** · 12-24-2007, 10:29 AM

I might add, TG is the only server of all I played on where spys cannot constantly run trough. It is the only server where the spies get called out and killed. In that light the decision to nerf spies is logical.

**Beatnik** · 12-24-2007, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Not that I care about this particular argument, but in general: if an option encourages only one style of play due to its effectiveness, then sometimes removing that option will result in more tactical play overall.

I guess it depends on your definition of "tactical". To me, being tactical means making an informed decision to leverage the most effective option available to you against your enemy, and removing a tactical option makes a game by definition less tactical.

In this particular case, I've never really seen an issue with spies killwhoring at inappropriate times (at the expense of sapping hardware). And the backstab is a pretty critical feature of that class; the best spies kill the uber-ready medic and/or his target at critical times, which is what I would call using advanced tactics to benefit the team, i.e. being "tactical".

Just my $.02. A pet peeve of mine is the inappropriate use of the word "tactical" when talking about literally removing tactical options from the table.

**asch** · 12-24-2007, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Beatnik

I guess it depends on your definition of "tactical". To me, being tactical means making an informed decision to leverage the most effective option available to you against your enemy, and removing a tactical option makes a game by definition less tactical.

In this particular case, I've never really seen an issue with spies killwhoring at inappropriate times (at the expense of sapping hardware). And the backstab is a pretty critical feature of that class; the best spies kill the uber-ready medic and/or his target at critical times, which is what I would call using advanced tactics to benefit the team, i.e. being "tactical".

Just my $.02. A pet peeve of mine is the inappropriate use of the word "tactical" when talking about literally removing tactical options from the table.

I think Cing's point was that if a particular class/unit has ten options at their disposal, yet one of those options is so overwhelming that it is used 90% of the time, then nerfing/removing that one option helps to balance out the other nine options. The goal is to make every option useful in particular situations and not have one option the dominant force.

A tactic is an approach taken to achieve a particular objective. When one particular thing is always done, it becomes less of a "tactical" choice. Adding, removing, nerfing, etc. of one option to make the other options balance out isn't making that particular option more or less tactical... rather it's making each tactic appropriate for the objective.

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-24-2007, 09:16 PM

"if a particular class/unit has ten options at their disposal, yet one of those options is so overwhelming that it is used 90% of the time, then nerfing/removing that one option helps to balance out the other nine options."

But that assumes that all of the options are worthwhile. If one is used 90% of the time because the other nine are stupid, then it's a pure nerf, and the 90% one will still be 90%, with a lower effectiveness.

I was wanting to take the intel. There were two engineers with L3s up. I sapped. And sapped. And sapped. Respawning enemies ran right by and did nothing because they knew I wasn't going to do anything. Sap sap sap. About 100 years later, one gun broke and that meant I'd soon have a wrench coming at me, so I sapped the gun, grabbed the intel and ran. The intel was about six feet behind me, and a safe wall six feet the other way. I couldn't run the requisite 18 feet before the sapper broke and I died to light-speed rockets.

How fun. I'd rather sappers took four strikes to break and did no damage at all. It's not like I can shoot them down with any velocity any more and a hard to break sapper would mean engineers needed help, rather than a dingus with a cutout mask stands around throwing radios at guns for a year before anything happens.

Even if four strikes was deemed excessive, which if they don't do damage it is not, how about long enough that I can sap, shoot once (Engi or gun) and then get back to sapper in time to re-sap when it breaks. Sappers aren't strong enough to let me do anything between application and re-application, which completely removes any option of me doing something other than standing around like an idiot. And don't say some crap about a teammate shooting the gun because by the time he hears the Engineer whine about the sappin', and steps into position, the sapper's broken and killing my teammate because <CLASS NAME HERE> spammed me and I instadied.

**Arf** · 12-24-2007, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

I was wanting to take the intel. There were two engineers with L3s up. I sapped. And sapped. And sapped. Respawning enemies ran right by and did nothing because they knew I wasn't going to do anything. Sap sap sap. About 100 years later, one gun broke and that meant I'd soon have a wrench coming at me, so I sapped the gun, grabbed the intel and ran. The intel was about six feet behind me, and a safe wall six feet the other way. I couldn't run the requisite 18 feet before the sapper broke and I died to light-speed rockets.

I don't even know where to begin debating that. You saw multiple level 3 turrets and multiple engineers and thought to yourself, "hmm, I'll just run in and take the intel."

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-25-2007, 01:43 AM

No, I thought I'd run in, sap their guns, and take the intel. But Valve won't let me because sapper is as effective as sticking bubble gum on the guns and about as resiliant as a glass nick-nack. Besides, sometimes there is no team in Team Fortress. My team was myself, two Snipers, and an Engineer. Needless to say the Snipers were busy looking over landscapes and Engineer was busy making a teleport that no one would use and doing the cowboy dance.

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