Re: TF2 Update 12/20/07

**Rampage** · 12-25-2007, 10:39 AM

Agree muchly with Bommando. I just don't think any one class was designed to single-handedly take down a L3 turret.

It's all moot anyway; if real gameplay results in something Valve *didn't* want, you can bet they'll tweak it again. In the meantime, we adapt.

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-25-2007, 01:18 PM

"You could have a super-sapper and you'd still lose."

Who said anything about losing? Didn't you notice I said I was on my team?

**icky** · 12-25-2007, 02:24 PM

Sorry, I'm going to have to side with the rest of the planet and disagree with you. While I did enjoy the fact that you could sap and sap and sap and take down the sentry of a team which didn't support its engineer, I don't think it matters too much if that is removed. The spy is still a powerful contributor to the team and has many options available to him on any map.

I am, however, absolutely disgusted at Valve for nerfing my pyro. It used to be that I could run into a crowd and kill 5-6 guys with ease. These days, I usually only get 2-3. How dare they commit such an atrocity. I bet Wil Smith thinks they're good people, but I don't.

**Beatnik** · 12-25-2007, 05:03 PM

hahaha Yeah if a single spy would be able to take out 2 babysat sentries and escape with the intel, that would be a major balance issue...

They nerfed the pyro? Admittedly he was overpowered in the right hands, but now I'm pissed. How else am I supposed to take out 2 level three sentries, a dispenser, two exits and three dudes with an uber?

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-25-2007, 10:10 PM

I don't need to take them out, but I should be able to shut them down. Considering getting out of the intel room would entail I have two angry engineers behind me and a very alerted team before me (since they'd have the pickup notice plus all the SPY'S SAPPING MAH SANDWICH! announcements to tip them off) I think I have a fair fight to actually bring the biscuit home.

**Sirusblk** · 12-27-2007, 12:34 AM

Maybe Valve could balance it a bit more with the sapper having more health. Two hits is ridiculous. I'd much rather have the idea of an engineer having to choose between saving his turret or going after the spy. If they nerf the damage of the sapper please up the health.

I hate the idea of engineers humping their turrets but that's what they do anyways. They make their nests and bang relentlessly on their turret. They also put them in their own areas, away from teammates. Shouldn't they be punished for not playing team oriented? Having a solo spy be able to take down a solo engineer is fair in my opinion.

Is this not a fair compromise? 4 hits would be acceptable.

**Zoopy** · 12-27-2007, 04:57 AM

Spies were always useless. They don't fit into the game very well. Making them weaker is a good thing.

**TheFeniX** · 12-27-2007, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

I hate the idea of engineers humping their turrets but that's what they do anyways. They make their nests and bang relentlessly on their turret. They also put them in their own areas, away from teammates. Shouldn't they be punished for not playing team oriented? Having a solo spy be able to take down a solo engineer is fair in my opinion.

A good spy could already solo an average engy. Magna is one of the few players who frequents the TG server that runs a good chance at taking my SG out on a run and I consider myself a pretty good engineer.

On the flip side, a smart engy should be able to take out an average spy when he's babysitting his sentry. And it plays out like that most times.

Is this not a fair compromise? 4 hits would be acceptable.

With how slow the wrench is now, 4 hits would be almost impossible for them to defend against. As it stands, a spy continually sapping a sentry while an engy knocks them off, will still slowly drain the health of the SG away and kill it over time.

That's why I give it a 2-1 combination: 2 hits on the SG, 1 on the spy.

With 4 hits with a wrench needed, one lone spy could decimate even a defending engy, not to mention an engineer on offense who has to contend with other enemy threats.

The Spy is not a combat class. If you can solo other classes as spy, kudos for you, but that was never the intention. They are meant as disruption and moral destroyers and they do that job well.

I personally find them more useful for killing medics and snipers, because either one of them can do serious damage when played correctly. An SG sits in one spot and shoots dumbly at the first target in it's FOF. A good sniper or medic can kill a push before it's even started.

**Sirusblk** · 12-27-2007, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

With how slow the wrench is now, 4 hits would be almost impossible for them to defend against. As it stands, a spy continually sapping a sentry while an engy knocks them off, will still slowly drain the health of the SG away and kill it over time.

Wait I thought that was how it stood before... With this update is that still possible? If that is the case then I understand 4 hits would be quite ridiculous.

I still think that the engineer is often used as a solo defense option and not very team oriented, Sentries are shoved into corners waiting for players to meander by. Now I'm all for controlling choke points but Sentries are an awesome offensive resource for helping a push. When you have your whole team up front you throw up a dispenser close by for ammo refuel and you throw up a sentry behind your teammates, that way you can still hold ground when your teammates have to retreat to recover health and ammo.

Spys are awesome for infiltrating the enemy side and making it back to the frontlines in time to take out critical targets (ie Snipers, Medics, and even enemy spies) to help a coordinated push.

I love the idea of a sapper because it's not really kill hunting in my opinion. It will earn you more points and makes the spy truly special. The spy has so little health and is expected to infiltrate enemy lines underpowered and obviously outnumbered.

I don't like the idea of any class not being used at any given time. I think teams should have a fair balance of everything. Maps like granary that don't promote snipers much anger me for that same reason. I want to see spys used, granted not for kill hunting but rather as an effective class at disabling the enemy.

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-28-2007, 04:38 AM

We'd like a four-hit sapper that does not do damage. Just shut the darn thing down completely.

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 12-28-2007, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

I don't like the idea of any class not being used at any given time. I think teams should have a fair balance of everything. Maps like granary that don't promote snipers much anger me for that same reason. I want to see spys used, granted not for kill hunting but rather as an effective class at disabling the enemy.

I've only been playing TF2 for a short time, and I already can appreciate that statement. I was in the No Hassle server last night playing 2Fort and we had 3 snipers, 5 engineers (I'm not exaggerating), me as a scout and I think the other guy was a pyro. At one point we had a couple of spys working their backfield, but it didn't matter because we had no offense whatsoever aside from me and the guy who was playing pyro.

Needless to say we lost. I kept saying to everyone over VOIP, "we have 3 snipers... we have 4 or 5 engies... we need a Heavy..." We got it together eventually, but we'd regress anytime someone would say "We need an engi to put up some SG's!" and all of a sudden we'd have 4 engies again.

Sometimes the people you are playing with can take this game, which is obviously great, and smear **** all over its face. I need to play on the TG server!

**MagnaCentipede** · 12-28-2007, 01:10 PM

I played a bit of heavy last night. Not medic-up-the-bum heavy, though. Fists of fury Heavy. Scout took the intel? I punch him he die. Soldermedic came in the front door? I punch him he die I punch his medic he die. Heavy in the sewers? I punch him three times he die.

**Sirusblk** · 12-29-2007, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

I played a bit of heavy last night. Not medic-up-the-bum heavy, though. Fists of fury Heavy. Scout took the intel? I punch him he die. Soldermedic came in the front door? I punch him he die I punch his medic he die. Heavy in the sewers? I punch him three times he die.

I hear the heavy's punch can destroy our glass sappers

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