westyfield

/Signed as well. Nicely done, I'm just going onto the Steam forums to see the extent of this flaming. Please do post up the response, it should be interesting to see what Valve think.

Here's the link to the thread for those that don't want to bother searching for it: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=707031

Also, since people have mentioned the Steam forums I thought it might be only partially inappropriate to post this video, which you've all probably seen.

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Catman1975

+rep for linking it

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TheFeniX

But how long will that be? 6 months? A year? That's a long time in the life cycle of a game, and I've seen good games die for much less.

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Headshot Yoshi

They were supposed to be class "alternatives" not "upgrades". You weren't supposed to gain a significant advantage by using a certain unlock, you were just supposed to play differently.

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ROCKS

in response to yoshi, If everyone gets an upgrade, then no one does in relation to everyone else. We see them as upgrades cause they are being rolled out individually and we have a reference point to compare against. If the game were new and all the changes were applied there would not be this backlash. Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what magna says, but I wish to pass judgement on the final changes.

In response to phenix, I don't like the slow roll out either because in the mean time us more serious players are left with an unbalanced product. The state of tf2 afairs as it stands today is as magna says. Let's hope they get the rest of the clases out fast so we can appreciate (or not) the final product soon and get back to a great balanced multiplayer experience (or not).

Beatnik

TF2 is in no danger of dying any time soon.

On the contrary, these updates intentionally change up the balance and roles to keep the game fresh for us die-hards. Not so much for the medic, although the Kritz does offer up novel stalemate breaking tactics. But for the pyro, his role has changed significantly from the definitive 'go-to uber class' to a more nuanced class who can reflect incoming projectiles, scatter stickies, and protect against charging ubers. The compressed air is a finesse weapon that rewards learning its capabilities in detail, while the backburner is a lethally effective CQC weapon when used properly. And yes, his extra HP should (and most likely will) be removed.

But the people getting overly dramatic and saying the sky is falling when an update is released are missing the point: these updates keep an aging game fresh, and if done right (as just about all indications have shown us - continual improvements in balance and tweaking non-obvious parameters like soldiers' self-damage and nerfing the effective range of pyros' flames after the pyro update), will significantly boost the lifespan of this game. My server's populations were starting to ebb a bit until the update, which sparked a new wave of interest in the game, and we anticipate similar effects from future updates. Old maps don't play the same as before, which is very much a Good Thing. Their shelf life has been extended significantly.

And Magna, no offense dude but reading your neverending littany of complaints about your one class is an exhaustive feat. You'll communicate your main points much better without the flowery prose. You don't have to sound like Madame Bovary to communicate your dissatisfation with an element of a video game. Your points would have been much more effectively communicated with zero reduction in content at a third of the length. And the tone comes across as condescending and self-satisfied, which also works against someone taking your points into consideration when you explain that you exclusively play one class.

In other words, sounding so self-satisfied that you're essentially ignorant of how other classes actually (not theoretically) play results in sounding like (for example) you're whining when the #1 counter to your class (the pyro) has the ability to kill you, and takes away from some valid points you make. The guy who went through and 'translated' your one post hit the nail on the head - his translation much more effectively communicated what you were trying to say. I say this as someone who's a self-described grammar nazi and fan of big words.

Just sayin'. Not trying to be personal but just provide constructive feedback.

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MagnaCentipede

I've felt this problem since medic's buffdate. That pyro happened to be second and that pryo is, in the eyes of the novice, an "enemy" of spy, is coincidence. The topic of my essay is the trend toward making press-and-rush the primary talent needed to play multiple classes, and the diminishing advantage of the skilled player in a skill-dependent class over any player (skilled or unskilled) in a press-and-rush class/weapon situation.

I explicitly stated that this is not about Spy vs. Pyro, about Pyro receiving a boon, or my tendency to express complete thoughts. Yes, my examples regarding the +50HP are from the Spy point of view. Guess what? About 2/3rds of my overall TF2 experience is from within the pin-stripped suit and thus I am more knowledgable about that particular example than, e.g., Demo or Engineer vs. Pyro.

As stated, I love the air burst, and I applaud pracitcally everything about the Pyro update except the +50HP because it distracts from the air burst and changes Pyro from an advanced ambusher and territory controller to a rush-and-roast berserker.

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Headshot Yoshi

Then they should of released them all at once when they were properly tested instead of ruining the game one update at a time.

I'm really not having any fun being valves unofficial beta tester.

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Beatnik

In the minds of many experts, including the game designers I suspect, the pyro is the #1 counter to a spy. When you have a spy problem on your team, what's the first class people (rightly) ask for more of as a counter?

Of course, it works both ways. If pyros are a big issue on the front line, getting a spy to take out a heavy or medic a couple times will have their teammates screaming bloody murder, bringing aggressive pyros back a bit.

Yoshi: Does this really feel like a beta to you? I'd much rather have an evolving, constantly updated "work in progress" that keeps things fresh like Valve's been doing than a permanently broken "final product" like BF2 that EA released and essentially ignored in exchange for $20 "expansions". In fact, the TF2 "beta" release a couple weeks early was a more complete (and better balanced) final version than most of the games I've played out of the box over the last 5 years or so.

All of these updates, at least on the face of it, have been made in good-faith, looking to change the nuances of class interplay while maintaining relative balance throughout the game, and making the game interesting for vets and n00bs alike. The have no concrete financial incentive to keep this up 10 months after release, but they view it as an investment in the longterm success of this and other games. I for one LOVE this model, and hope it teaches EA (and many other companies) a thing or two about the proper way to release and manage the evolution of games.

But yeah, maybe if you guys aren't having any fun with it, then this isn't the game for you.

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MagnaCentipede

I asked %killername% if he thought it felt beta and he said "%s1".

Since when can a spy take out a heavy or a medic? A spy can't get within ten feet of either of them without being checked to death.

That Valve maintains the game and produces new content is good; that is not argued against, and I highlighted that most of the individual changes are for the better. But a few bad apples are spoiling the bunch.

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Beatnik

No idea what that first quote means.

And I can only interpret your second sentence there as hyperbole. Maybe if you're getting checked to death, give spy a break for 3 minutes until they forget and stop checking. Then it's quite easy to get deaths. We have several spies on our server that are infamous for not only killing medics/heavies, but getting away unscathed. But they certainly don't do that 100% of the time, as any persistent spy charging will result in the appropriate counter-tactic of spychecking.

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MagnaCentipede

%killername% is a long-standing bug where after dying, the kill-cam shot will title your assailant %killername%. There are similar macro strings that will appear for your stats report, also. The bug was very common around February, and while sorta-fixed, it will appear from time to time, still.

You need some heavies and medics who I've trained to not die all the time.

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Beatnik

Hmm. Never saw that bug.

I play with your heavies and medics quite a bit, actually. And if someone's relentlessly charging as spy, they're aware and check constantly. But for some reason their guard drops if the spy takes a break. Interesting.

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Fish #641

While I agree with most of your points Beatnik, I do have to say that Spy does in fact suck. And I don't ever take breaks when I medic. No spy backstabs me unless it's some sort of crazy glitch that makes them extend a knife through the level and ban me from the server, where I then check the console and it says that I was backstabbed. But seriously though, spies lose against medic hXc.

Headshot Yoshi

Evolving? Pyro goes from the ambush class that actually took a bit of skill to be useful to the "always attack head on and hold mouse1" class. Spies backstabs have only gotten worse since the game released. Sniper headshot no-reg has started to become a problem. Facestabs. People shooting through gates. Funky glitches when you minimize like invisible enemies.


I'll tell you what. I stopped playing every other game in favor of TF2 when it came out, and I thought I was actually pretty good at it too. It wasn't all about how many kills you can get, it was a lot of teamwork and communication, something scarcely seen in games these days. Now with the new pyro update, theres no need for teamwork, you'll have 4 pyros on both teams that will respawn in waves taking turns throwing themselves into the opposing team just for kills and to see how many people they can set on fire so everybody has to run back to heal. I fail to see how if valve screws up a already perfectly fine game that it's all of a sudden "not a game for me" and how I should go play something else. The problem is, there really isn't any equivalent to the pre-update TF2. I want it back.

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