Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. - Page 3

Spyder · 07-26-2008, 12:43 AM

You haven't seen me around the server much since they started rolling out the new stuff.

Nuff said.

Fish #641 · 07-26-2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headshot Yoshi

Now with the new pyro update, theres no need for teamwork, you'll have 4 pyros on both teams that will respawn in waves taking turns throwing themselves into the opposing team just for kills and to see how many people they can set on fire so everybody has to run back to heal.

This is simply not true. Anyone can tell a story to pity themselves. It's harder to actually stop feeling sorry for yourself and to face facts.

**TheSkudDestroyer** · 07-26-2008, 02:40 AM

Sigh, and once again this becomes butthurt vs pyro players.

I will only admit that the 50 hp is (maybe)damaging to the game. Everything else in the game has been positive.

However that does not mean Magna's letter is not valid. If players just accept every change without constant bitching, then game developers have no incentive to improve - only to change. I personally don't care for airblast - It's just not good when compared to the health boost. That's what makes it bad (I guess). I would never go back to the needlegun when the blutsauger gives me health.

Those two facts are what's wrong with the updates, NOT the updates themselves. Kritz = good. Ubersaw = rewarding. Airblast = good. Axetinguisher = rewarding.

Yes, the 50HP is a buff - but the 50HP is now an attribute to the PYRO CLASS as a whole. Stop thinking of it as a buff and start opening your minds to "how can I best defeat this new attribute?"

Headshot Yoshi · 07-26-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish #641

This is simply not true. Anyone can tell a story to pity themselves. It's harder to actually stop feeling sorry for yourself and to face facts.

That's basically what you agreed with when you backed magna's letter.

It's nice how when it comes to magna you don't disagree, but when it comes to me you think im being a jerk and you insult me. You waste no time making it clear to me that you don't like me.

**TheSkudDestroyer** · 07-26-2008, 06:01 AM

Instead of valid concerns and actual gameplay related discussion, Robin intends on reading the interworkings of flawed love-affairs between two gamers who's narrow view of the world is constricted to TF2 and few other games.

(Take it to a PM)

Steeler · 07-26-2008, 09:23 AM

I agree with about 70% of Magna's post, and agree that Pyro extras need some serious tweaking to bring it more in balance with the rest of the classes. I'm less concerned about the needlegun, as my life-expectancy as a medic has not significantly increased with the addition of those little green crosses. But that may be just an issue of personal technique, since if I have the needles out at all I consider myself to be doing something wrong. It's heal or bonesaw when I play.

I'll add this comment on Spy - it is difficult to have an honest discussion about game balance with spy, because the heavy skill requirement to make the class effective (call it the "barrier to entry") leaves most players to experience the spy in one of two capacities: the guy who keeps stabbing me in the back, and the class where I die a lot.

I think the skilled spy, being an effective counter to just about every other class in the game except scout, should have a strong nemesis in the pyro. But that doesn't change the fact that the recent changes to pyro effectively tips this relationship too far in the pyro's favor, particularly if, like me, you already find the spy play style incredibly frustrating.

MagnaCentipede · 07-26-2008, 01:10 PM

Don't think of Bludsauger only in terms of numbers; it changes attitude. For example, as a Medic I would never charge a solo Heavy because he is big and I am small, but with Bludsauger, I know I'm fast and evasive enough that any Heavy that isn't Dude- or Rocks-quality I can ruin because the Blud will recover enough of the damage that unless someone backs him up, I will kill the heavy. And I've done this many times. In fact, I think Skud was there to remember when I did that in Warpath and commented that Medic should not be able to simply drill an enemy Heavy.

Skilled spy is a match for skilled scout; the winner is determined by the distance between the two when the encounter begins, and if the spy hits his first two shots. The pwns/pwnr relationship on spy is distorted, because instead of it being by class, it's by situation. Every class will own spy in one set of situations, and be owned by spy in another set. Regarding pyro v. spy, the HP buff simply, and arbitrarily, expanded the set where pryo doesn't care about being shot up because he's holding the button down.

Steeler · 07-26-2008, 03:12 PM

I think the frequency of successful Medic on Heavy charges is sufficiently low that I wouldn't worry about it affecting game balance, but that may be a reflection on my own lack of agility than actual gameplay mechanics. I don't hit much with the Blutslauger (sp?).

Which brings up an interesting dynamic - the functionality of each class stretches across a wide range of player skill and tactical thinking. What you see as a powerful tactic I may think is either impossible or justified, based on my own abilities and experiences.

MagnaCentipede · 07-26-2008, 03:23 PM

The heavy-medic combo is very well-balanced already and with the upgrading-effect of the bonus packs so far, I don't want to see it become a problem. Granted, Valve has been leaning toward making Heavy a better Solo class, but I'm wondering if that's an issue at all. Heavy is supposed to be a defender, and generally if your team is on defense you're going to have a medic hanging close to home. Heavy is already very offensive when he has a medic, does he need to be a 300lb. Rambo when he doesn't have a medic? We already have Pyro holding the button down... what's Heavy going to do for his new offensive tactic? Aim? He already has shotgun for "fast" offensive action, and that's going to be opting out for a non-generic like flaregun was.

Beatnik · 07-26-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headshot Yoshi

I'll tell you what. I stopped playing every other game in favor of TF2 when it came out, and I thought I was actually pretty good at it too. It wasn't all about how many kills you can get, it was a lot of teamwork and communication, something scarcely seen in games these days. Now with the new pyro update, theres no need for teamwork, you'll have 4 pyros on both teams that will respawn in waves taking turns throwing themselves into the opposing team just for kills and to see how many people they can set on fire so everybody has to run back to heal. I fail to see how if valve screws up a already perfectly fine game that it's all of a sudden "not a game for me" and how I should go play something else. The problem is, there really isn't any equivalent to the pre-update TF2. I want it back.

Fair enough. I see plenty of teamwork still, and I see evolving tactics on maps like Dustbowl and even Gravel Pit, where the charge-build uber-break entrenched D strategy doesn't necessarily work any more.

As far as the hyperbole "with the pyro update there's no need for teamwork any more", yeah. Hyperbole doesn't really help your case when anyone who's read it has played on a server with teamwork knows this to not be the case. 4 pyros on a team? Sure the week or two after the update. Just like with the medic. But things are back to normal across almost all servers now. And I say this as an often-time pyro (see avatar).

I'll pose this for consideration: maybe it's this intense culture of complaining that's souring the game for you guys. Perhaps if you guys worked on teamwork and gameplay as much as finding fault in what's probably the most polished, balanced multiplayer shooter in history, you'd start having fun again.

Just saying. It's not impossible to have a teamwork-filled server with hard charging players on a nightly basis. Not that it's easy, but it's not impossible. But this culture of blaming the engine for every little thing is poison if you're trying to get people on the server. But that's just my opinion. I run my own server with its own culture, so I guess I could be wrong.

**TheSkudDestroyer** · 07-26-2008, 08:12 PM

The complainers don't seed, they only like full servers where they pwn and have no risk of dying.

Just sayin.

God forbid the game became a legitimate challenge to anyone - I come from games where 1 shot ~ 1 kill.

ROCKS · 07-26-2008, 09:30 PM

When I first encountered the blunt gun I was shocked by how quick it dropped my health at medium to close range. I quickly learnt that as a heavy my shotgun vs blunt was a loosing battle. I imagine that is the case for all shotguns. So if I turn a corner and there is a medic there I have to get spinning fast and I can usually come out on top but with little life to spare. Usually im saved cause he runs out of ammo. Medics have received a weapon that has some ofensive capability that does give medics some confidence for offensive game play. I'm not saying a non spinning heavy can't drop a medic but it's certainly a close call. It's not a gripe, just a philosophic comment. The thing is it may feel a little unbalanced but it makes it a more attractive class to play and as we all know, the more medics the better. I don't mind (speaking as a heavy) having the blunt as it is if it means more guys playing medic.

Fish #641 · 07-27-2008, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSkudDestroyer

God forbid the game became a legitimate challenge to anyone - I come from games where 1 shot ~ 1 kill.

That has nothing to do with a challenge. All that means is that new players can actually understand how they're getting rolled. All 1shot1kill translates to for me is who can see the other person first. Which takes down a lot on the whole "thinking" part of the game, which is why I enjoy TF2 more than most FPS's; you not only use reflexes to quickly target threats, but also have to quickly prioritize enemies and determine the best way to kill them. TF2 is the Thinking Man's FPS in my eyes.

"God forbid" you have to use your brain in other FPS's. (See how that makes my post have a sting while not adding to the discussion much? That's not a good thing.)

Yoshi MCF · 08-01-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Blutsauger trades crits, which is a random event, with health-gain, which is a sure-thing. This is not a strategic choice. Everyone runs Blutsauger because you go from hard-to-kill to really-hard-to-kill, and that's better than getting a slightly quicker kill on a given enemy 5% of the time. (Steam stats show about 1.2% crit rate for needles, but it may be combing classic needles and Blutsauger.) Thus, Medic received a rattlesnake buff. He isn't really stronger, but you don't want to get near him because he simply kills you now, instead of defending himself and calling for help.

I disagree. The Blutsauger is designed to give the medic more of a chance to run away with a little ubercharge built up after the meat shield in front of him is shot to pieces. I think it does that. If you're playing a class that relies on short-range damage and you're alone, you're probably not going to kill the medic as he backpedals. In any other situation, you should be able to dodge enough of the needles to take him out at medium range. If you're killing heavies 1v1 with the blutsauger, you need to find better opponents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

The Backburner's highly-limited crit angle means it isn't dependable, and this is its headliner ability. Never mind that sneaking up behind people is supposed to be Spy's job, instead minding that the Backburner is supposed to punish people for turning to flee; skilled players don't behave that way and unskilled players are usually toast anyway, so again the Backburner doesn't do what it says on the tin.

The pyro was originally intended as the ambush-around-corners class, or at least so say the hints on the loading screen. Yes, it is very similar to the spy. It has more hp than the spy, and is more consistent because it deals good damage to the front of the opponent, even though it can't instantly kill from the rear. Now, it deals even better damage when you manage to sneak a really good ambush in, or if your enemy is bad enough to face their back towards you. So, it's now closer to the spy. It's still much worse at surprise kills and much better at frontal assaults and acting as part of a small team.

The rest of your argument against the backburner was nullified with the last update, and I think we're all better off for it. You were right, and Valve agreed. For the record, I almost always use the regular flamethrower because it's one of few weapons that can disrupt an uber, and even though I'm bad at it, I like trying to deflect rockets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

With Heavy's update on the horizon, I see a trend:

What is the most imbalancing part of the Medic update? Blutsauger. How is it used? Hold MOUSE1 and drive it into someone wearing a differently-colored shirt than the one you wear.

What is the most imbalancing part of the Pyro update? Backburner. How is it used? Hold MOUSE1 and drive it into someone wearing a differently-colored shirt than the one you wear.

Considering the offending weapon always seems to be the primary weapon, and Heavy's primary is already based on holding MOUSE1 and pointing it in the general direction of enemy shirts, I become concerned. We have had two updates in a row that reward farming achievements to get a weapon that rewards simply holding the +attack button down while keeping the enemy somewhere near the center of the screen, and next is a class where that behavior is the most-significant requisite skill!

I think the ubersaw is much more unbalancing than the blutsauger. Two skilled medics can keep each other ubered for a minute or more. This can completely disrupt the opposing team's advances - the usual strategy of hiding until the uber is over is ineffective when you're going to lose a full minute while the other team solidifies their defenses. The blutsauger, for me at least, is pretty hard to hit with because of the inaccurate, slow, parabolic arc, and the difficulty of seeing where your needles are landing relative to where they should be landing.

I get the feeling that the heavy's next weapon will be the opposite. I think that in order to be better without a medic, Sasha will be replaced with something more accurate, better against other solo players, and therefore, less spray-and-pray. But we're both just speculating at this point, so there's really no reason to discuss this until the update is revealed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Key point: Players who like to play all the classes should always be finding the right class for the situation. The last few nights I've played, I've only paid attention to two things: Heavy-Medic combos and Pyros. It's quite simple, pyros will force a retreat and you can't do much about it, and Heavy-Medic combos will force a retreat because you can't do much about it. Playing Spy, I used to go in and try to cut either half of a Heavy-Medic combo, but anymore the Medic just kills me because he isn't blind, or the Heavy gets stabbed, doesn't die, and a moment later proceeds to turn around and punch me into the grave. Why bother to consider all nine classes when three are wrecking balls and six are lame fodder that the enemy will hardly even pay attention to?

Heavy/Medic combos on servers with consistently good players (like TG) are tough to stab. The medic's sole job is situational awareness. After pyros, medics are the best counter to spies because they have the time to be paranoid. With the ubersaw, you may be feeding them uber instead of disrupting their attack.

Pyros are the counter to spies. Spies shouldn't be able to stand long enough in a pyro's flame to circle strafe and get a lucky stab. Spies shouldn't be able to use the revolver to take out a pyro from outside the range of the flamethower - the pyro should read the spy's intention, quickly fire a flare at him, and back off to let another class deal with the revealed spy, taking solace in the fact that the spy was slowed from getting to the front lines where other players would almost certainly get stabbed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Key point: Every class should have something to do. If Sniper isn't worth playing because a pyro will run at you, eat your headshot, and burn you to death anyway, then there is a problem. If Spy isn't worth playing because stabbing isn't effective due to coding flaws* and because revolver is no-longer useful against all the medic-buffed and backburner-buffed players, there is a problem. If Soldier is getting sidelined and Scout becoming forgotten and/or ignored, there is a problem. (* I omit from this essay three paragraphs written in draft regarding the balisong's technical issues.)

Every class does have something to do. I'm not a career anything. Given the choice, I like playing sniper or pyro, but almost every time I die, I check the class screen and switch to something else if nobody's playing it and it would be useful.

Solders can easily juggle pyros while taking minimal damage from flamethrowers. Soldiers can kill medics from outside the effective range of their blutsaugers. Soldiers can make snipers take temporary cover so that other classes can push forward. A pair of solders can knock out a turret from long range. Soldiers, like demomen, are primary sources of long-range suppressing fire.

I can't really speak for the role of scouts - I'm pretty bad as one. Compared to Natural Selection skulks (my closest reference point), scouts are too big to dodge, too slow to hit and run, unable to ambush, and don't deal enough damage. I've seen scouts that can own demos, soldiers, snipers, and spies, but I can't do that myself. The only reason I ever play scout is to rush a point, and they certainly fill that role. I hope they're next to get upgraded after the heavy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Key point: When skilled players who play skill-focused classes aren't rewarded for applying their skill, they will leave the game. Why work together when half the team is holding MOUSE1 and charging at enemies who are doing the same thing? Why work to master a class when a first-timer can be 95% as effective?

You're consistently top of the scoreboard, and not by a narrow margin. I don't know how you do in clan matches, but for a pubber, you've mastered the spy. That said, you can always improve. To be honest, I was annoyed when said "Spies don't sap, except in emergencies," in response to a pyro asking you to sap a sentry so that he could burn it down. Sure, sappers don't do much damage. That's not the point. They disable stuff. You've effectively one-shotted the sentry the second you put the sapper on it. You just need someone else to do the damage. Furthermore, I'm sure you have no problem sapping a sentry and then stabbing the engineer behind it. Even I can do this, and I haven't played a tenth of time you have as spy. Sappers can't kill sentries when there are multiple engineers around, but if they could, the demoman would be pretty useless.

In addition, have you considered that mastery of a single class isn't enough? I believe not every class can succeed in every situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Shouldn't players become known on their server for HOW they play a preferred class, not simply which class they happen to play?

As someone who switches classes often, I disagree. Each class does have a specific role, and sometimes not every role is needed. Respectfully, You're already known for being that spy that kills half the opposing team by himself. You should be known as that player that can set up your team to take the next objective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

I'm not having much fun in Team Fortress 2 these days. A week ago I effectively quit playing Spy and started fielding Sniper. And it wasn't to snipe, but to play Spy! Remember that bit about strategic decision with Kritzkrieg? That's what happened. Sniper rifle no-scope does comparable damage to revolver, but because it has no spread cone, it will actually hit where I aim it -- my skill will turn into damage, compared to revolver, where my skill will fly off to the side and crit the skybox.

I completely agree. In Natural Selection, it's not always a joke that a marine's primary weapon is his pistol (which, if you don't know, has perfect accuracy). I was very annoyed when I started playing TF2 that none of the pistols are accurate or damaging at a distance, and in fact, the only way you can make bullets fly exactly where you fire them is using a sniper rifle. That said, 99% of spies people don't play spy for the revolver. They play it for the knife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

skilled or not, I die in a split-second to someone with hold-the-button-down talent when I'm either class. [...] In the past I would engage a Pyro with confidence that I could triumph by using my skillful aiming and my wily maneuvering to ensure I did 175 before he did 125.[...]I don't argue here that Spy should be a desperado zipping around shooting down everyone he sees, but using a class I know well as an example, any class should be able to at least enjoy a fair fight when he starts with, as a class ability, the higher ground, be it in the form of the element of surprise (Spy v. Medic) or a geographical advantage (revolver bullets against flamethrower's short range, or shotgun's spread) or any other factor that suits the class in question.

And well it should be that you die to these classes when you're not stealthily stabbing them in the back. If you're found out as a spy or anywhere near anyone else as sniper, you should be dead, running, or able to pull off that really lucky, once-a-game kill. The hold-the-button classes are designed to shred anything that comes near them. Skill isn't the question here - class choice and situation are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

Team Fortress 2 promised strategy and tempered rewards for skill, but it's turning into a frag-fest where the skilled player is being forced to choose classes based on which one Valve Software decided to make the best/popular class for the month, or suffer being soundly defeated by +forward;+attack.

I agree. I thought TF2 would be a strategic game, but it's turned out more like Team Deathmatch Fortress 2 instead of Strategy Fortress 2. The last bit of strategy left in the game for me is class selection. Both teams should constantly be rotating classes in order to counter what the opposing team is playing. On the other hand, I like how Valve is forcing a small amount of imbalance and changing the game about as often as it gets stale. Thus far, the imbalance has tilted solidly away from your favorite class. It will probably get better with the heavy. Solo heavies, in my experience have the worst situational awareness. You should be able to expect many easy stabs once that class becomes the most popular for the month after it's changed.

MagnaCentipede · 08-02-2008, 04:09 PM

"The Blutsauger is designed to give the medic more of a chance to run away with a little ubercharge built up after the meat shield in front of him is shot to pieces."

Does this ever happen? I can't think of a single time when a heal target fell, and the medic immediately threw needles back. They just run for a new heal target. I can think of times where I've stabbed a medic, then fired my six into him, leading to me dying as I'm running away and trying to reload because he yelled OKTOBARFÆST! and held the button down while chasing me.

"If you're killing heavies 1v1 with the blutsauger, you need to find better opponents."
Rocks is a weak heavy, then...

"You're consistently top of the scoreboard, and not by a narrow margin."
Maybe in the old days. Usualy I'm ±10, and usually it's 0~-10 behind a heavy. Disregarding last night, it's been weeks since I got a +20 first-place or even an ultra kill, which was an every-round thing when knife worked.

"They disable stuff."
They don't. If the engineer is playing wrench-monkey, by the time I see the sapper stick, he's already delivered a whack to it. By the time I see it break, he's already killed me with a crit. And after that, you hear me say on voice that I've sapped it and then you die instantly to an angry Level 3.

"I'm sure you have no problem sapping a sentry and then stabbing the engineer behind it."
I'd guess I have about a 40% success rate. Click here to see why.

"And well it should be that you die to these classes when you're not stealthily stabbing them in the back."
And if I could stab them in the back then I would but that doesn't exactly work when you must wait three or four seconds to move your arm after decloaking, when disguise is useless because everyone is attacking their teammates, and when a stab doesn't actually kill people sometimes.

That was something I noticed last night; I was watching myself play and realised that I was behaving the way I played when I wore the name Revolver Practice all the time. I was missing opportuntites to fail-stab because I never had the knife out when I needed it, as I used to. The negative re-enforcement effect of fail stabs has driven me from being revolver-competent to revolver-dependent, and has put me in the mood associated with that limitation.

07-26-2008, 12:43 AM	#31 (permalink)
Spyder Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: MN (Middle of Nowhere, MN) Age: 25 Posts: 1,065	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. You haven't seen me around the server much since they started rolling out the new stuff. Nuff said. __________________ a.k.a. NinjaPirateAssassin Celibacy is not Hereditary. Everybody should believe in something - I believe I'll have another drink. Happiness is like wetting your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth. Flying is easy, Just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

07-26-2008, 02:40 AM	#33 (permalink)
TheSkudDestroyer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NY Posts: 3,225	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. Sigh, and once again this becomes butthurt vs pyro players. I will only admit that the 50 hp is (maybe)damaging to the game. Everything else in the game has been positive. However that does not mean Magna's letter is not valid. If players just accept every change without constant bitching, then game developers have no incentive to improve - only to change. I personally don't care for airblast - It's just not good when compared to the health boost. That's what makes it bad (I guess). I would never go back to the needlegun when the blutsauger gives me health. Those two facts are what's wrong with the updates, NOT the updates themselves. Kritz = good. Ubersaw = rewarding. Airblast = good. Axetinguisher = rewarding. Yes, the 50HP is a buff - but the 50HP is now an attribute to the PYRO CLASS as a whole. Stop thinking of it as a buff and start opening your minds to "how can I best defeat this new attribute?" __________________ \|TG-6th\|Skud BMT Graduate - 320th Training Squadron, Flight 024 - MSgt Romero - "Kids no more!" 30 weeks Keesler AFB, 1W031 - Weather

07-26-2008, 06:01 AM	#35 (permalink)
TheSkudDestroyer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NY Posts: 3,225	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. Instead of valid concerns and actual gameplay related discussion, Robin intends on reading the interworkings of flawed love-affairs between two gamers who's narrow view of the world is constricted to TF2 and few other games. (Take it to a PM) __________________ \|TG-6th\|Skud BMT Graduate - 320th Training Squadron, Flight 024 - MSgt Romero - "Kids no more!" 30 weeks Keesler AFB, 1W031 - Weather

07-26-2008, 09:23 AM	#36 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. I agree with about 70% of Magna's post, and agree that Pyro extras need some serious tweaking to bring it more in balance with the rest of the classes. I'm less concerned about the needlegun, as my life-expectancy as a medic has not significantly increased with the addition of those little green crosses. But that may be just an issue of personal technique, since if I have the needles out at all I consider myself to be doing something wrong. It's heal or bonesaw when I play. I'll add this comment on Spy - it is difficult to have an honest discussion about game balance with spy, because the heavy skill requirement to make the class effective (call it the "barrier to entry") leaves most players to experience the spy in one of two capacities: the guy who keeps stabbing me in the back, and the class where I die a lot. I think the skilled spy, being an effective counter to just about every other class in the game except scout, should have a strong nemesis in the pyro. But that doesn't change the fact that the recent changes to pyro effectively tips this relationship too far in the pyro's favor, particularly if, like me, you already find the spy play style incredibly frustrating. __________________

07-26-2008, 01:10 PM	#37 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. Don't think of Bludsauger only in terms of numbers; it changes attitude. For example, as a Medic I would never charge a solo Heavy because he is big and I am small, but with Bludsauger, I know I'm fast and evasive enough that any Heavy that isn't Dude- or Rocks-quality I can ruin because the Blud will recover enough of the damage that unless someone backs him up, I will kill the heavy. And I've done this many times. In fact, I think Skud was there to remember when I did that in Warpath and commented that Medic should not be able to simply drill an enemy Heavy. Skilled spy is a match for skilled scout; the winner is determined by the distance between the two when the encounter begins, and if the spy hits his first two shots. The pwns/pwnr relationship on spy is distorted, because instead of it being by class, it's by situation. Every class will own spy in one set of situations, and be owned by spy in another set. Regarding pyro v. spy, the HP buff simply, and arbitrarily, expanded the set where pryo doesn't care about being shot up because he's holding the button down. __________________

07-26-2008, 03:12 PM	#38 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. I think the frequency of successful Medic on Heavy charges is sufficiently low that I wouldn't worry about it affecting game balance, but that may be a reflection on my own lack of agility than actual gameplay mechanics. I don't hit much with the Blutslauger (sp?). Which brings up an interesting dynamic - the functionality of each class stretches across a wide range of player skill and tactical thinking. What you see as a powerful tactic I may think is either impossible or justified, based on my own abilities and experiences. __________________

07-26-2008, 03:23 PM	#39 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. The heavy-medic combo is very well-balanced already and with the upgrading-effect of the bonus packs so far, I don't want to see it become a problem. Granted, Valve has been leaning toward making Heavy a better Solo class, but I'm wondering if that's an issue at all. Heavy is supposed to be a defender, and generally if your team is on defense you're going to have a medic hanging close to home. Heavy is already very offensive when he has a medic, does he need to be a 300lb. Rambo when he doesn't have a medic? We already have Pyro holding the button down... what's Heavy going to do for his new offensive tactic? Aim? He already has shotgun for "fast" offensive action, and that's going to be opting out for a non-generic like flaregun was. __________________

07-26-2008, 08:12 PM	#41 (permalink)
TheSkudDestroyer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NY Posts: 3,225	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. The complainers don't seed, they only like full servers where they pwn and have no risk of dying. Just sayin. God forbid the game became a legitimate challenge to anyone - I come from games where 1 shot ~ 1 kill. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Skud BMT Graduate - 320th Training Squadron, Flight 024 - MSgt Romero - "Kids no more!" 30 weeks Keesler AFB, 1W031 - Weather

07-26-2008, 09:30 PM	#42 (permalink)
ROCKS Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 207	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. When I first encountered the blunt gun I was shocked by how quick it dropped my health at medium to close range. I quickly learnt that as a heavy my shotgun vs blunt was a loosing battle. I imagine that is the case for all shotguns. So if I turn a corner and there is a medic there I have to get spinning fast and I can usually come out on top but with little life to spare. Usually im saved cause he runs out of ammo. Medics have received a weapon that has some ofensive capability that does give medics some confidence for offensive game play. I'm not saying a non spinning heavy can't drop a medic but it's certainly a close call. It's not a gripe, just a philosophic comment. The thing is it may feel a little unbalanced but it makes it a more attractive class to play and as we all know, the more medics the better. I don't mind (speaking as a heavy) having the blunt as it is if it means more guys playing medic.

08-02-2008, 04:09 PM	#45 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Open Letter: A Disturbing Trend in Team Fortress 2 Game-play. "The Blutsauger is designed to give the medic more of a chance to run away with a little ubercharge built up after the meat shield in front of him is shot to pieces." Does this ever happen? I can't think of a single time when a heal target fell, and the medic immediately threw needles back. They just run for a new heal target. I can think of times where I've stabbed a medic, then fired my six into him, leading to me dying as I'm running away and trying to reload because he yelled OKTOBARFÆST! and held the button down while chasing me. "If you're killing heavies 1v1 with the blutsauger, you need to find better opponents." Rocks is a weak heavy, then... "You're consistently top of the scoreboard, and not by a narrow margin." Maybe in the old days. Usualy I'm ±10, and usually it's 0~-10 behind a heavy. Disregarding last night, it's been weeks since I got a +20 first-place or even an ultra kill, which was an every-round thing when knife worked. "They disable stuff." They don't. If the engineer is playing wrench-monkey, by the time I see the sapper stick, he's already delivered a whack to it. By the time I see it break, he's already killed me with a crit. And after that, you hear me say on voice that I've sapped it and then you die instantly to an angry Level 3. "I'm sure you have no problem sapping a sentry and then stabbing the engineer behind it." I'd guess I have about a 40% success rate. Click here to see why. "And well it should be that you die to these classes when you're not stealthily stabbing them in the back." And if I could stab them in the back then I would but that doesn't exactly work when you must wait three or four seconds to move your arm after decloaking, when disguise is useless because everyone is attacking their teammates, and when a stab doesn't actually kill people sometimes. That was something I noticed last night; I was watching myself play and realised that I was behaving the way I played when I wore the name Revolver Practice all the time. I was missing opportuntites to fail-stab because I never had the knife out when I needed it, as I used to. The negative re-enforcement effect of fail stabs has driven me from being revolver-competent to revolver-dependent, and has put me in the mood associated with that limitation. __________________

Sponsored links

Sponsored links

Sponsored links