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Discussion: Team Fortress 2 / Team Fortress 2 - General Discussion - Auto-balance - Originally Posted by xTYBALTx I spent several rounds on the losing team yesterday because my
  1. #31

    Pokerface's Avatar

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by xTYBALTx View Post
    I spent several rounds on the losing team yesterday because my 7th bros were on that side.

    I don't understand why wanting to play with friends is being conflated with team stacking. Let's leave the team stacking out of this.
    If your team has a greater cohesion than the other team because you practice together and know each other very well, and the other team is comprised of people who don't do that, that's the DEFINITION of teamstacking, man.

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  3. #32

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerface View Post
    If your team has a greater cohesion than the other team because you practice together and know each other very well, and the other team is comprised of people who don't do that, that's the DEFINITION of teamstacking, man.
    Do you understand how this statement is logically flawed? The implication is that as soon as there is some amount of cohesion happening that it must be broken up immediately due to "teamstacking". Quick, that heavy & medic are working together - randomize the teams!
    2 Legit 2 Quit

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  5. #33

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFeniX View Post
    I can't stop "clicks" from forming around the different games that TF2 has drawn in from TG, but I'm not about to foster the behavior....
    Damn those clicks, clicking away. Maybe the 7th clique can stop them?

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  7. #34

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerface View Post
    If your team has a greater cohesion than the other team because you practice together and know each other very well, and the other team is comprised of people who don't do that, that's the DEFINITION of teamstacking, man.
    The IHS squads were formed to increase the level of gameplay on our servers. The whole point of having IHS's is to elevate the level of gameplay and team cohesion.

    This all sounds like a proxy conflict between the two (apparently conflicting) TG cultures of NS and BF2.

    Which is fine, except that no BF2 admins are apparently being tapped to help out with TF2.

    That worries me, given the rhetoric I'm hearing about these non-issues and others' perceptions of the roll of the IHS's.
    Last edited by Beatnik; 09-21-2007 at 02:08 PM.
    Beatnik

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  9. #35

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by xTYBALTx View Post
    The point is that it's nice to be able to do so when one wants to.
    Um, you CAN. Exactly how is autobalance stopping you from doing so? Anyways, I think it just switches the first person who dies once the teams are imbalanced. Solution: don't die.

    I still don't see the harm in trying autobalance off, and seeing what happens.
    I do, for the same reason FF is off: lack of a decent admin tool and relatively small admin team at the moment. Added that I can't trust players right now to keep the teams even.

    So essentially, anything that makes the server run smoother is going to stay in effect until the community has time to build up and we have access to better server tools.

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  11. #36

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    Re: Auto-balance

    I think this thread needs to get over itself.

    Yeah, it can sometimes be an issue, but just leave it. The games been out for what, 3 days now? I understand the importance of being earnest and stopping issues before they start, but if the plan is to go smaller, "team stacking," is going to be an issue in that case no matter what anyone tries to do. Hell, I've seen 3 people on a team get teamswitched by an admin in BF2142, and totally unbalance a game. Now, the settings of these two games are completely different, but its something to just consider/think about.

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  13. #37

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    Re: Auto-balance

    In the last 3 days which I have played with a friend of mine, I was autoed once (on more servers then just TG). I don't really see the big deal in leaving auto balance on, to me it's a potentialy bigger deal if it is turned off.

    Secondly, this is a public server, meaning you will and want to get new people attracted to the comunity. From the PoV of a new person on the server I don't think it looks very good when they constantly see the same people together on the same team (I know it annoys me when I play pubs against 'organised' groups).

    Maybe coming from NS where we accepted/appreciated being randomly assigned each map has skewed my view in some way, but I enjoyed playing with every player who played on that server so long as they followed the simple rules. Given time, a regular community will (hopefully) form on the TF2 server.

    I don't know about you, but what I would like to see is a group of regulars which I know strive to work/communicate together regardless of who they play with, that way I can have an enjoyable game no matter who is on my team.


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  15. #38

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Stop trying to hammer the square peg that is TF2 through the triangle shaped hole that is NS and BF rules/experiences.

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  17. #39

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopy_T View Post
    Stop trying to hammer the square peg that is TF2 through the triangle shaped hole that is NS and BF rules/experiences.
    EXACTLY

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  19. #40

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    Re: Auto-balance

    I can understand both sides of the conversation. Those that are for auto-balance need to understand that some will opt to spectate as opposed to joining the other team and that the implication is that even those who do seek balance are limited to switching to the other team when the opponents are getting trounced unless they are down a man. We ran into that the other night as the server was slowing down. Our team was accused of team stacking when there wasn't a darn thing we could do to help them out without the winning team going down 2 men even for a second to send one of their guys over. The end result was that 10 rounds were completed within the game timer and it was a somewhat boring and repetitive 10-0 score. The implication of course is that Autobalance prevented us from being able to unstack the teams.

    For what it's worth, the guys in the 5th JTF do generally split up onto both teams as we know we can be an unbalancing factor otherwise. Let me ask one question. In teamspeak, there is a channel for Red and for Blue. Why is that when if you pick one team in game, you may be auto-switched and then privy to the opposition's ongoing conversation?

    My personal feeling on the matter is to somehow have AB off at the very beginning of a round so players who did choose to use TS as a coordination tool could get in game and then maybe have AB kick on after the round begins.

    Lucky Shot

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  21. #41

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Shot View Post
    My personal feeling on the matter is to somehow have AB off at the very beginning of a round so players who did choose to use TS as a coordination tool could get in game and then maybe have AB kick on after the round begins.

    Lucky Shot
    We can't do anything like that until valve releases the SDK so devs can update their admin tools.

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  23. #42

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopy_T View Post
    Stop trying to hammer the square peg that is TF2 through the triangle shaped hole that is NS and BF rules/experiences.
    Ok those other games aside here is how I see it.

    It's an FPS, skill aside, numbers do matter. This is a fresh game/communit SO, lets say there is an imbalance. If autobalance is disabled - can I count on the guys who want to play together to switch? can I count of pubmaster 2000 to switch? If no one switches the game is potentially ruined, we have all seen it in countless other games, it's a fact.

    I agree that once we have an established player base we can count on people to step up and switch (people won't be leaving in the first place if we have that playerbase, unless they absolutely have to).

    I am not opposed to playing with it disabled, but I would much rather get autoed then have a game ruined by sheer numbers.


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  25. #43

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Bommando View Post
    I'd like to point out the Natural Selection love-fest going on. Looks like a major armory-humping
    The reason it may seem like a NS-Love-Fest is that Natural Selection was probably the first game hosted at TG where this problem occurred (to a game breaking extent)

    NS by design worked with smaller teams (6-10 per side) that when you lost 1-2 people, you really felt it. If those teams were not balanced immediately, it was very likely (and happened often) that the winning team became the losers.

    I don't think TF2 has the same level of game-breaking imbalance though. Its a much looser game, and can carry on being 1-2 people down decently well (that of course depends on team size)

    Personally, I would vote that it be turned off temporarily. See how it works. If it sucks, switch it back.
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  27. #44

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    Re: Auto-balance

    At this point, I don't have much of a preference in the autobalance, nonautobalance argument. I think there's a lot to be said for trying to get numbers up at first (which demands "even" teams) and then worry about the other stuff.

    However, longevity seems to benefit from "cliques" as you so artfully put it. Those who work together with small groups are far more likely to stay and appreciate the game long term. There are a number of reasons this is true:

    1. Small numbered groups make doing tactics easier. Yes, it's true that the game in general will get progressively better as we learn more and more about the game. However, this pales in significance to those few people who learn to team up with each other regularly. These types of things demand a certain level of sophistication that mere "pub" play usually doesn't achieve.

    2. Competition breeds good game play. I'm not just speaking of the competition that comes from balanced teams (although this is true), but I'm also talking about rivalry.

    3. Rivalry also increases interest. There's rivalry on the small scale: I want to beat X player because he's good. But there's also rivalry on a bigger scale: I want to beat group A because they're good. The larger the scale of the rivalry, the more interest gets generated.

    TF2 is intriguing because it exists in sort of a space between the battlefields and our smaller games. I think we need to approach it as such. Those of us from BF2/2142 can't treat it like our 50-64 player servers, and those from the smaller games can't treat it like a tiny server.

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  29. #45

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    Re: Auto-balance

    Yes, the 7th play on the same team *every* game I have been in on the server. No, it does not make for unbalanced game. Maybe it is not the nicest thing to do - to start a small dichotomy or maybe it is meaningless and they just like to play together. I just don't see the sense in arguing about teamstacks especially this early in the game.

    What I do see is that everyone is realizing the potential for this game to move in a more technically and strategically interesting (and for most, satisfying) game. I say let the game come into its own for a bit before trying to push it in a direction or even attempt analysis after less than a week of playing.

    It would be nice to know how autobalance chooses its victi-err, player just for curiosities sake.

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