Cysten

Hey I'm posting this thread because I really like what this community has done with counter-strike. I also love this game. It has SO much potential. I am, however, disappointed in how the game is played on most servers, like counter-strike. I propose we do something similiar to what the counter-strike people from our community have done:

-Make EVERY round sudden death. What makes counter-strike so great is that there are consequences if you die. Death fills you with fear. If you die, you have to sit out the rest of the round pondering what you did wrong. Also, there will be more order to the game. You won't (or at least not as much) have stupid people running around randomly, not caring if they die.
This will also STRONGLY encourage teamwork, which is what our community is about.

-Have some kind of heirarchy. This may be a put-off at first, but if it is done smartly, it could make this game SO much more interesting. Their are an infinite number of strategies and combinations you can do. Unfortunetly, to make use of most of them you have to have strong teamwork and coheriency. This almost always means someone had to be in charge. Each team should always have a team leader. I do not think the leader should always be the same people. This would greatly discourage team play. Perhaps we should have a a merit system where the person with the most points (top of the screen) is the leader. Or we could
have it randomly selected each round. Each leader should have temporary admin privledges to enforce the rules and kick people who are stupid. To prevent abuse, perhaps only registered regulars could qualify as a regular. Also, the leader will not always be the leader, so this encourages him to be nice. Next round someone else might be the leader with the admin privledges.

-Have long freeze time. Yes this is annoying at first, but you get used to it. Especially if you are making good plans.

I would be very excited to play on this kind of server. Right now our TF2 server is like everyone else's. Still kinda fun, but not very strategic. Feel free to post any additional ideas you might have. I would be interested in hearing them.

-Moving Target

TheFeniX

First off, glad to see a new face on the TF2 servers.

TF2 wasn't really built around the concept of a one death system. Sudden death 100% of the time would completely remove the objective of each map and focus more on kills. Whereas a one-time spawn in CSS is actually beneficial to the way the objectives are setup, most of the objectives in TF2 are set around longer goals and use different combinations of kits to counter other combos. The spawn system makes for adaptability on the fly. If one tactic isn't working, the "losing" team can adapt and regain momentum. This is at the heart of TF2.

As for your other comments, they basically boil down to using administrative tools in order to replace competent players. I don't really think this is a road we want to go down.

I've never once played on a TG server because it had X server cvar enabled or ran a specific TG plug-in. I play on the TG servers because they have a higher caliber of player. Plug-ins don't make a good server: players do.

Really, I've seen what just 4 TG-minded players on each team can accomplish. By working as a group and completing the objectives, public players tend to start emulating them. Even the ones concerned only about frags tend to jump onboard because the TG players are at the top of the list.

I could load plug-ins all day, but in the end the only thing that's going to differentiate our server "from the masses" is the caliber of players that frequent it. I have yet to game on a TG server where everything just fell into place. It takes hard work on account of all the players (admins included) in order to create a TG environment.

The beginnings of the CSS server was rife with public players constantly pushing the limits of PCS and, at times, actively working to circumvent them. It took a serious admin team combined with a good and active TG player-base in order to make the PCS server what it is today. The only real break from 99% of CSS servers (config-wise) was the addition of a long freeze timer. This is something I've considered, but it seems based upon a 5 second timer in the "setup time" area. I believe this is defined by the map, not the server.

I remember quite well the frustration of dealing with these players on a daily basis and doing my part to inform admin of problem players while also making sure to help new players to the PCS server on how to properly play there. I'm glad to see we've got a player here who's willing to help us along with TF2.

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IMI-50AE

Hello there Cysten, welcome to TG.

While you have an interesting idea, I don't really think it would be popular at TG or really anywhere with TF2. The way the game is designed to be played means that while you don't wish to die, having no respawns pretty much negates some of the classes' usefullness. How often do you see scouts in sudden death? And if you do, how long do they last? Exactly, not that long for the average player. Of course, part of the reason about people not being so concerned if they die is that it doesn't effect the victory conditions, as there are no tickets in regular matches, something kinda popular, it seems.

I believe I read something about how they toyed with a commander position, but dropped it for some reason or another. Thus this would lead me to believe, in combination with playing the game, that a formal commander position wouldn't really be that much fun, or for that matter, useful. Most good teams self-organize, and they communicate and hash out battle-plans and responsibilities on their own.

The freeze time would be nice in some regards, like for the people with minimum spec comps, but it would make it harder on defense maps, as the attackers would have the joy of running into a bunch of lvl3 turrets, uber-ready medics, and the like. Happens now, but would be a greater extent with longer warm-up.

I see what kind of angle you're coming from, and it seems that you might be interested in Project Reality, but I'm not sure if TF2 is the right game for that sort of change. Could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

Cheers, IMI.

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I'm going to close my eyes until it's over~Experiment, commenting on my driving

"Get it up quickly and beat it hard."~Jonan
I don't get a bonus DVD? My life has lost all meaning.~Zoopy_T

Quire

I agree with the above replies. I don't think single death and admin-leader would make the games better.

I am intrigued by the idea of a longer freeze time at the beginning. Not a longer setup time, that would favor the defense. But there are a few seconds of actual freeze time where you can't move just before setup starts. It gives you time to switch classes quickly without getting behind the other players. I don't know if there is a server variable to extend that.

If that window was extended, even to 15-20 seconds, it would be a great time to allow team coordination. For example, on Well you could discuss tactics quickly and push for everybody to go scout or pyro, or get a volunteer engy to set up at the second point just in case. On gravel-pit, you could answer question like "defend A, B, or both?" while everybody is paying attention rather than after they have already scattered to the wind.

Playing my own devil's advocate, it would only really be useful on a server with some experienced players and the rest willing to listen and coordinate. "Four snipers are probably too many", "We'll need at least one soldier", etc.

On a more experienced team, only a second or two are needed, or the coordination goes on at the end of the previous round. On a team where nobody is coordinating and don't care to, it's just wasted time.

CingularDuality

You are right on, and I've been saying this since before the game was even released!

Seriously, freeze time would improve the game at TG.

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Strag

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icky

My experience with map setup is that it all depends on whether or not you have players speaking up and directing the team. When you have someone taking that role, you easily get the team organized in the standard time. When you don't have someone taking that role, extending the time would have no effect.

Most of the coordination in this game happens after the game starts and you get some feedback from the people who see how the opposing team is deployed.

I feel like we discussed this in another thread...

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Peace through fear... since 1947!

TheFeniX

I have dug high and low for some way to modify the beginning round freeze time for both the benefit of coordination and to give players with slower PCs time to enter the game.

As a work-around, I might look into raising the "waiting for players" time up to around 1-2 minutes. This would serve both purposes well. The same problem remains though: finding the cvar or waiting for a plug-in. Maybe I'll see what mani-mod offers.

Granted, but it really doesn't hurt to rehash the discussion every once in a while. If we forget why we run the server the way we do, we can lose focus.

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IMI-50AE

What do you mean by the 'waiting for players' time? I'm guessing its not the same as warm-up.

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playing off the TG server feels like we're playing 2142 on easy mode~Fehmart

I'm going to close my eyes until it's over~Experiment, commenting on my driving

"Get it up quickly and beat it hard."~Jonan
I don't get a bonus DVD? My life has lost all meaning.~Zoopy_T

Zoopy

Waiting for player time is when you get in the server fast, it waits for like 20 seconds then restarts the round (allowing more people to connect so one person with a fast connection doesn't already cap the case on 2Fort).

I'm sure upping the Waiting for player time will only spawn more jackassary then it currently does.

Cysten

I guess some of the things I don't like about the game is how fast it is. This can be fun, but if you want to have a plan, this can be a major problem. Some of these classes have to be highly coordinated to work together. This is almost impossible when before you have a plan down an enemy scout has infiltrated your base and whacked you from behind.

Making a good plan is also extremely difficult when things are changing continously. You don't know what things will be like 20 sec from now when you get there to execute.

For these reasons I would like to try a slower paced game. I very much enjoy sudden death rounds because people are more cautious and you have more time to think. Also it slows down the battlefield because dead players are not coming back in. This makes a detailed plan feasible.

I think sudden death can be adapted to most of the TF2 maps. For instance. The capture the flag maps might have to be changed so that one score wins the round. Thus you can feasible win without killing all of the enemy team.

As for the freeze time, is there anyway to lock everyone in their bases? Then let one team out early if required by the map?

For their to be any teamwork their must almost always be a facilitator. Otherwise people are just spouting their opinions and then go do whatever they want. This teamwork works best when that facilitator is designated. I do not wish to be confrontational but the notion that people work well together when just thrown together is unrealistic. If you don't believe me try running a business this way. Having a leader guarantees that their will be some kind of plan. This greatly increases the likelyhood of each class playing to their utmost potential instead of running around aimlessly.

Someone mentioned that sudden death makes the scout useless because if you just run in your dead. This makes sense, but it depends on how you scout. A leader may wish to ascertain the enemy's position. A scout can just pop in and out very quickly. A skilled player can do this without dieing and can get healed quickly by a medic and go scout again.

In short, I feel that game play could be greatly enhanced by:
1. Slowing down game play
-Make every round sudden death
-Have freeze time before every round if feasible
-Alter objectives so that one team can win quickly without having to kill the opposing team

2. Have a designated leader. This ensures organization and plan. This makes class organization and creativity much more likely.

MagnaCentipede

Cysten, we have CSS playing by those rules. Enjoy.

TF2 is supposed to be fast action, and it has plenty of room for strategy because it is the way it is. CSS is set up so you play the same round over and over and over, and you tweak your strategy between rounds. TF2 is about one long round and the winner is the team that adapts fastest because players can change class every 30 seconds.

Some maps could use a bit more wait-time, but aside from Grainary, which is over before it starts if one side doesn't know how to stop the scout rush, many maps don't really hurt for being a man down at the start. Two-Fort is notorious for being a 30-minute stalemate that the server eventually gives up on. A late arrival isn't putting his team at any disadvantage there.

Also, sudden death is a whole different game from normal play.

If you want a chosen leader, we have Infiltration due for an update. Or, get then, make a plan and if you're a good leader the team will adopt you. If you listen to the commentaries, TF2 was a leader+squad game for a long time but the problems of getting a lame leader and making the game fun for both leader and squad were insurmountable, so they made the game fun instead.

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icky

The sense that you don't have time to think is very much a psychological effect of the fast-paced game. TF2 is very funny in the way it affects players ability to think clearly and execute the task at hand. Teams will have 20 minutes to attack a point and they will repeat the same failing attack plan over and over again, then with 1 minute left, someone will say "hey, let's attack from the left with an uber, get those turrets cleared, and capture the point".

On a completely different topic. An increase in the "waiting for players" timer could be very useful on some maps. On initial load of cp_well, for example, I almost never get into the game and get to the middle in time to participate in the initial fight for the middle CP. Likewise for granary.

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Peace through fear... since 1947!

Cysten

I very much like the game the way it is. Its fun when you want to just let off some steam and run around senselessly and kill people for an hour. However, the game has just a huge amount of potential that is currently not being explored. This is why I think a pseudo counter-strike mod
would make this game fantastic for people who want a different style play.
I enjoy CSS. I just think this game can be even better.
As for the leader system, I'm sure it will need to be tweaked a little bit. How about a voting system? Each round team votes for a new leader. This will keep things civil.
Anyway, I can kind of sense this isn't exactly popular.

I'm very interested in shaping human behavior from a structural standpoint. Maybe when I'm graduated I'll have the spare cash to start my own server and see how this works.

-Moving Target

TheFeniX

CSS has a massive population of players who do exactly that. The PCS server is (or was, don't play much anymore) what it is only because of the players on that server. Realistically, it's just one server among thousands. But when you take into account the players, it's something much better.

Or not. I saw the shenanigans first hand of "high ranking" BF2 players joining the TG:BF2 server and getting commander based upon their worthless "EA Rank." This had some disastrous effects.

I'm all up for new ideas, I just don't see this one being able to replace mature players. No server at TG got to where it is with plug-ins. Sure, they may help a bit (especially something like reserved slots), but it's no replacement for good players.

This is the crux of the problem. With a majority of good TG players, this plug-in is superfluous anyways.

If you need some help on this, give me a ring. I just think you'll find there are other games based around this concept better. BF2 implements your leadership idea better than a TF2 plug-in ever could and CSS is a bit slower paced in between rounds.

I want the TF2 server to be different enough from other TF2 servers to bring in quality players, but once you start differing from the standard game-play mold too much, you're really no different than the average NeoTF or "CSS Pistols only" server.

We want the TG server to subscribe to the 3 basic TG tenets: Maturity, Communication, Teamwork. Players are going to bring that, not the server itself.

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