Fish #641

TG is all about promoting good teamwork. So I start playing 2fort on the server and all I
hear over the VOIP is stuff like "Spy as pyro." Is that teamwork? No!
The reason that 2fort is always stuck in stalemates is that people just do whatever they
want on that map; it's made for any class. So why does no one choose the one class that
wins the map? That's right. No one plays the medic on 2fort.
Sure, that level 3 sentry at the top of their stairs in their courtyard look formidable and is
taking everyone out. Why not just uber a soldier and take it out? It's as if 2fort is the map
that is just there for people not to be a team, rather than try out new strategies each
time. So next time, coordinate with your own spies instead of only calling out about theirs.
And please: get some medics.

TheFeniX

I agree with your assessment: 2fort tends to make players go off and do their own thing. I try and help the best I can, but I'm generally playing engineer for intel defense.

Try and point people out who seem to just be going off on their own and doing poorly. You never know: they may want to back you up as medic.

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Mahonri Moriancumer

Yeah 2fort is that exact type of map. When I play 2fort I'm usually Pyro/Demo for defense most of the time. I still haven't received my headset so when I'm in the server I'm not much of a help..should have it this week though. If you see people doing that , try to make some calls. If I'm in there and you need a job done I can generally switch and help ya.

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May God have mercy on my enemies because I won't.

Ingame name is [Zion] DanielLion |TG|!!

MagnaCentipede

The problem with 2Fort is guns. (It's piss-poor design, actually, but the guns effect the problem.)

Every single game of 2Fort with players who aren't dead stupid works out like this:

Engineer puts a gun at the top of the garden and another gun either on the front door foyer or on the top of stairs/spiral. Now, only spies can get in and no one can get out. Killing the guns doesn't work because you need to pop two ubers to kill either gun, only to be mowed down by the next gun and the endless march of respawning enemies.

Now that there's no fight within the base, everyone spends 30 minutes having sissy slap fights. The scouts contribute nothing becuase they can't get any further than the sniper row. The snipers contribute nothing because all they do is trade headshots with each other. The spies either hang out waiting on cheap stabs on the cocksure or commit suicide by walking up to a gun and pushing the FREE WRENCH button, clearing the way for no one to come through for all of 0.3 seconds. Medic + Foo will break a gun from time to time, which trades at least two lives and about a minute of game time to gain twenty feet of ground for ten seconds.

In light of the situation, why would anyone even try to get the case? It's certain doom. The only way to get a cap is to have a suicide spy move it to the side that doesn't have two guns, have a miracle blast class get it to the brige, and then inch it until you get it behind your front wall.

Why go through all that crap when you can just target the top of the scoreboard instead?

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Beatnik

All 2fort requires is 3-5 people coordinating on offense. One ubered pyro can take out two sentries typically. Or if a spy's playing along and sapping the sentries before you hit them, an uber isnt even required.

The challenge of all CTF maps is that they require a higher level of teamwork, specifically on offense. It's easy to turtle up and play defense on these maps, but much harder to organize a consistent offense pushing at their flag. If either team can get a decent offense working with at least 3 people pushing together, they're almost guaranteed a win.

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Doktor Goku

Quoted for truth.

I love 2fort, and much of the love is for Beatnik's reasons. So many people complain about the lack of teamwork- YET THEY'RE THE ONES NOT WORKING ON A TEAM.

It's not uncommon for me and 2 to 3 other people, working as a team, to go and win the map while others on my team are complaining about the lack of teamwork.

Ironic, no?

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I might just think that those complaining about "teamwork" are just upset because people aren't following THEIR idea of teamwork. Lots of experience has proven just that- to the point where we've called people on it, and thankfully, most of 'em realize we're right.

Most of 'em do, anyway.

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Doc-in-training

TheFeniX

This is a phenonmenon on the TG server almost exclusively related to 2fort. Most other maps (with hydro being an on/off exception), players bring it in regards to teamwork. Hell, Dustbowl and Gravelpit almost always end up being a serious use of voice comms and team wins/losses are decided by just who happened to have the best plan or just got a lucky break during an intense game (and luck isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes things just come together for you at the specific moment the other team has a bad run).

I generally apply this attitude with 2fort to a couple of reasons:
1. 2fort is extremely popular in the TF2 community. So, it's generally the map I use to seed the server. So, if pubs are seeding first, they aren't going to bring the level of play TG players are.
2. It's an old map played to DEATH in TFC. Public players in TFC rarely cared at all about capping the intel because it didn't effect their game. In most TFC servers, there was just a timelimit. Forget that capping the intel gave you 10 points, you might ruin your stats by dying trying to get it.
3. It's kind of looked at like combat for Natural Selection: just a diversion until we get enough players to go to a better map.

I will say this, judging by the popularity of the TG:TF2 server lately, 2fort might not cut it in the map rotation for too much longer. The map has never really offered much in terms of game-play (even in TFC). I personally don't enjoy the map that much, but it does bring the players in. Once we get a good spread, the server goes to (you guessed it) Dustbowl. This is where people usually bring it all together to have some serious games.

2fort is just not that hard to work with. I can't count the number of times I've single-capped the intel as soldier, even with an engy of DF. Give me a medic... and it's pretty much a given I'll get that intel without having to "inch-by-inch" it. Even maps like Turbine and Mach3 offer more than 2fort.

Unfortunately, I'm almost always stuck on DF, so it's kind of moot.

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MagnaCentipede

"2fort might not cut it in the map rotation for too much longer."

Not once I get my map rollin'. I've got about 20% of the geometry figured out so far. Just need to tweak the cap rooms (which I posted some mockups of), make a command decision on a bit of the routing, then just throw up the walls and all your CTFs will belong to me.

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Fish #641

hahaha I'm getting opposite things coming from Magna and Beatnik. I feel that 2fort is very similar in design to Mach3, but people play it differently. A few good sentries could cover the intel if engis are watching them (on Mach3), but are often taken out because of an ubered soldier. It is a weird phenomenon though.

On an unrelated note, does anyone feel as if dustbowl is just too repetitive?

Snail88

no. dustbowl is, always has been, and always will be my favortie tfc/tf2 map.

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MagnaCentipede

You're getting the same thing from both of us. Beat's saying you can win 2Fort with three people if they do it right. I'm saying why it doesn't happen in pubs.

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BlackBart

Actually 2fort is older than TFC, it was one of the original TF maps when TF was a Quake 1 mod. It has always been the most popular map (notice all the 24/7 2fort servers are usually full) and is very likely the most played map for competition/scrims/etc....

The map has changed slightly over the years, the origonal map had only a single hallway going to the flag room (intel room). And where the long stairway leading to the basement is located used to be an elevator that was only useable by the defending team. Also, the bridge was not roofed, and defending players would sometimes spawn in the basement. And finally the cap point was on the sniper balcony where the shack is now.

So... looking back, 2fort should be EASIER to cap on than it was before. All the changes have been made to make it harder to defend. Keep in mind there were no Ubers, and spy's didnt have sappers back then either. The only change that seems to make offense more difficult has been the removal of grenades, which works both ways. But grenades was a primary means of removing sentry guns.

Things I dont see happening much anymore... are alternate accessing, and coordinated attacks. By alternate accessing, I mean rocket/pipebomb jumping (conc jumping is out). Some people still jump up to the battlements, but hardy anyone goes up on the grate anymore, or jumping up the ramps (in the courtyards) both of these allow pretty quick passage into the lower levels, often not giving upperlevel guns time to fire.

But the main key is coordination. But most TG people understand that.

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It's what you know about who you know.


[TG]BlackBart / [TG]FatalCure

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