Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? - Page 2

Bc2ID · 01-28-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

I'd like to plug my $0.02 by saying that I can't be bothered playing on the TG server due to a string of bad decisions stretching from just about the day this game was released - a disappointment I might add that has caused me a fair amount of consternation. This map happens to be one of my favorites and, in fact, I spend the vast majority of my time playing CTF-mode maps. Removing it from the map roster would also remove my last remaining reason to investigate this server at all when those little "TG-Event" group messages pop up. Harsh words, perhaps, but then politics were never about playing it nicenice.

Things have changed and for the better...you'll never know unless you do a looksie for yourself. We have CTF well, mach, turbine, as well a 2fort (x2). No one will force you to game on the TG server as that choice is yours. However, I would like for you to come and stop by as I enjoy gaming with you. The choice and reasons behind those are what guide you.

Braidedheadman · 01-28-2008, 10:21 PM

I'd also like to take a moment to remark on the perceived lack of teamwork that some here have suggested this map engenders. I wrote the following tactical guide for the 5th's "Intel" room, but I feel that it's appropriate to share here:

Quote:

This is a tactic that I've used on numerous occasions with a good deal of success once the rest of the team catches on to what their roles should be in it and how everything fits in place.

"Be the first to take action and force your opponent to react to you rather than you reacting to him," is the underlying principle behind this tactic. Basically, I'm not content to always leave engineer assets up at the main base on defense duty as I believe that offense in TF2 is the best defense. Tying up OPFOR inside their own base, with their flag room ever under threat is far more effective than having them inside your base threatening your flag room.

Here is the build order, commencing from the very beginning of the round:

1.)Place a sentry in a spot that covers the courtyard, the loft room and/or the entrance from the sniper deck in order to impede the scout rush that invariably marks the start of every round. I find that at the corner of the door as shown is the best spot for nailing incoming scouts and is a good defensive position over all.
2.) If you expect heavier resistance, place a dispenser to support repairs of your sentry and provide health, otherwise skip to 3.
3.) Place a teleporter entrance. I find that hiding them in the hay stacks limits the number of times I have to make a return trip to the loft room in the event that defenses are breached while I'm away. An inactive TP pad is hard to spot and most people don't bother to check them for hidden assets.
4.) Get out of dodge as soon as it's safe and head for OPFOR's sewer stairs in whatever way seems best and least conspicuous. Once at the top of the stairs, place a dispenser as shown below:

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people will run head long down the stairs here and utterly fail to take notice of the enemy dispenser here. People only really start checking this spot once you establish a pattern here, which they may later come to expect. But this is just one of several forward engy positions and varying one's position is outside the scope of this tactical review.
5.) Run back to the sewer room, grab metal and head back to the stairs at the bottom of which you build your TP exit.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1..._2fort0001.jpg
This is another inconspicuous place that the vast majority of players fail to check in their haste to hit the frontlines and it places your rally point close to your assets for quick and steady reinforcements.
6.) By now your dispenser should be complete and has begun stocking metal reserves. Head back to the sewer room where the next box of metal should also respawn by the time you get to it. Don't waste your metal in the dispenser if you can help it just yet.
7.) This next part works best when you have team mates following you through the exit you just built, which they should be doing if they are smart. A heavy is particularly effective here as he can block the doorway to the sewers. As he is constantly being healed and has effectively an endless supply of ammo, he can simply hose down the corridor and rooms in front of him with near impunity. He is virtually immune to death if he has a medic in the room behind him healing and charging uber for the final assault on the flag room. Do your best to encourage these two to accompany you and stick around for a bit.

8.) Quickly place a sentry gun very near to the position shown below, destroying the one at your base if it hasn't been already - you won't need it there anymore if you and your team can pull this off:

Run back to your dispenser to collect metal as needed to upgrade your SG, though I find that prudent use of the shot gun in combination with defending brand new sentry often supplies adequate materials with out revealing the presence of your dispenser if you're alone. Placing the turret secures it against 2 things: Pipe bombs from the grill room, which have a hard time making it around the corner enough to do significant damage; stickies are of no concern from here either. And pipe bombs and stickies from the courtyard door for the same reason. Too far in either direction, however, and you risk heavy damage to your station and a painful rebuild. By cutting down the demoman's angle of attack into this room and you force him to have to corner dodge your turret, which also makes him have to prioritize where he wants to cluster his sticky bombs since he's shotgun-bait any times he decides to try and dance your turret on the corners.
9.) Hopefully by now, at the very latest, your team will have joined you and are making their push with ubers into the courtyard/flag room areas. In the chaos, now is a good time to dispose of your old dispenser - which should be low on metal anyway so no real loss - and teleporter exit. Arrange them around your sentry gun as follows:

With the carnage and the bits from your old gear that you just demoed, you should have more than enough metal to place these in one go and have them both built in short order. The reason for placing the turret off to the side like that is because if you place it behind the turret, it blocks its line of sight down the opposite end of the hall, making your dispenser an easy target for those spawning and dropping out of the secondary spawn room's hole around the corner. The TP exit I put there so that those porting in can serve as a meatshield as defenders stream out of the courtyard and try dancing the corner.

10.) You now have a hardened, very capable frontlines position with which to wreak havoc on the OPFOR and support your team for wave after wave of assaults on the flag room. The initial push is the only hard part about it. Once their defenses are down in the courtyard and loft room above, the rest of the round is literally lambs to the slaughter and ends fairly quickly.

When I say the initial push is hard, I do mean just that. It can be very tough to get set up properly and in a timely manner. One needs to gauge whether they should whip out the wrench and fix a smoldering sentry or stick with the shotty until you can help your turret eliminate immediate threats before conducting repairs (or rebuilding for that matter). Also, not blowing your dispenser's cover in the sewer stair room is important. If you're sentry goes down early and you get in trouble, just dash down the stairs and draw OPFOR into chasing you. More often then not, they see easy points and will not take notice of your assets.

In deploying my engy assets like this, I'll often have a fairly hefty negative KDR at the onset. But once every thing is set up, your turret will make mountains of kills for you and soften many more for your teammates to finish off. I have on a few occasions gone from a KDR of 1:2 and reversed my fortunes for a respectable ~2:1 KDR by the end of the round. Not bad work for an engy, if you can get it.

This is a heavily team-reliant tactic, however, and if your teammates are happier to turtle in their base, this will be hopelessly frustrating so know when to cut your losses and turtle with the rest of the cowards.

[Edit]

God help the OPFOR if other engies catch on to the idea and start building around there as well... and they always do.

Also god help the OPFOR whose level of teamwork sucks enough to allow the other team, whose level of teamwork is high enough to allow this to happen in the following video clip:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...27994274002691

Fish #641 · 01-29-2008, 12:05 AM

Just for everyone's info, if me and Johnnyboy get on and TG is empty, we almost always start up a game, with people following close behind. So if seeding isn't really that big of an issue. I would rather see mach3 (is it 4 now?) more often than playing 2fort. There are of seeders, but I know some of them would rather not seed 2fort.

Bc2ID · 01-29-2008, 12:06 AM

The picture in the first frame was used against us tonight. I agree it is a good placement, however that did not stop us from taking it down with ease. I am unaware of the engineer's point of view that set it up, but I hope he sees the post and comments.

Thanks for the post Braided as it will only aid the community in placement techniques.

**RandomGuy** · 01-29-2008, 12:34 AM

I'm just going to chime in to agree that 2fort is conducive to teamwork.

Braidedheadman · 01-29-2008, 01:47 AM

It's worth noting that an unsupported turret is a dead turret no matter where it's placed. The turret in the first frame is mostly there just to stop the initial scout rush, as it covers all possible entrances, and buy the engineer time to book it over to the enemy base if he intends to set up offensive frontlines there. It's downside is that it does not have as good a FOV down into the courtyard, making it vulnerable to demos and ubers coming up the stairs adjacent to the spawn room. Engineers should always have a defensive class hanging around for best results; SG + Sticky bombs are a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome.

The second position is a little more hardened. I've modified the placement since I posted that tactical guide into a configuration that is more durable still and an engy can hold his own fairly well if he is suddenly cut off from support. Still, it has its weaknesses too and works best when either a heavy sits down near the dispenser or is protected by stickies and/or a secondary SG emplacement down the hall.

I don't believe that any one map is better for teamwork than another as it all boils down to how people play the game rather than how it's built. There are several key points on this map that can be taken and held almost indefinitely, both offensive and defensive, with adequate teamwork - not the least of which is Enemy Intel rooms, as shown in the clip I linked to above.

**TheFeniX** · 01-30-2008, 02:00 PM

I don't agree that 2fort requires anymore or any less teamwork than other maps. It's pretty balanced and does offer a few different ways in combined with well defined choke-points.

I do agree the 2fort suffers in both creativity and enjoyment. I personally don't find it fun because I've been playing the map off and on for around a decade. I am surprised that even players new to the TF series are bored with it, but I can't really blame them. It's like Dust2 for CS: it's just overplayed.

But it is still a great map to bolster numbers during off-peak hours. The server was losing players at around midnight last night. We had a few SMs on, but the server was winding down. Loading up 2fort garnered us another 4-5 players almost immediately. Numbers aren't really my concern right now as the reg base for TG:TF2 is quite solid, but nothing sucks being stuck on a server you support with only a few people to blow up.

I am considering an end-map rockthevote system, but BATs seems to be flaky on that. I am looking into other admin programs.

MagnaCentipede · 01-30-2008, 03:31 PM

Ugh, I hate that keyword. Anyway, as long as an admin is on, we ought to just "@@ Please nominate nextmap." Mapvote popups irritate me to no end (they've ruined so many CSS innings for me...) and it promotes interaction with the @'s, which is good for the community.

Fish #641 · 01-30-2008, 05:23 PM

Is there a shortage of admins? I really haven't noticed.

**TheFeniX** · 01-30-2008, 05:42 PM

Admin coverage is pretty good. Rarely is there not an admin available either in game or via HLSW. But, the few times I ask: "Would you all prefer another map," responses are either "nah" or silence.

Braidedheadman · 01-30-2008, 06:13 PM

Might that not indicate that the actual number of people who have a problem with this map are, in fact, in the minority? There are a ton of 2Fort 24/7 servers out there, none of which would exist if the map were not entertaining.

Fish #641 · 01-30-2008, 06:54 PM

I have a 24/7 2fort InstaSpawn server favorited, I use it to just blow off steam if I have like 15 minutes to play. I'll probably be on it for a bit when the new medic achievement comes out.

MagnaCentipede · 01-30-2008, 06:59 PM

Unfortunately, 2Fort doesn't seem to be enough to trigger spontaneous genesis; It's been on 2Fort all day and I haven't seen any drifters come in and take root.

If everyone wants to try to seed it tonight, I'll be on to play later tonight.

**TheFeniX** · 01-30-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

Might that not indicate that the actual number of people who have a problem with this map are, in fact, in the minority? There are a ton of 2Fort 24/7 servers out there, none of which would exist if the map were not entertaining.

I'm sure duel_duel is entertaining to a lot of TF2 players. But if the general consensus among SMs and regs is that 2fort is not an enjoyable map, then it's probably going to get the axe if there's a good assortment of other CTF maps we enjoy.

I may want to draw in new players to the server in the hopes that they'll frequent the server more often and become SMs to help bolster the TG:TF2 community, but I also have to balance the enjoyment of the existing playerbase. Whereas public players may show up because we're playing 2fort or dustbowl, they hang around because of the experience we offer. If 2fort isn't offering that experience because we're just tired of playing it, the server suffers more.

Look at it this way: people generally won't say "Wait, this server doesn't have 2fort in the rotation" /disconnect. What they will say is "This map sucks" then disconnect. I've had players mention "You guys should host X map," but they don't leave because we don't have it.

Not having a popular map does far less "damage" than having players slog through a round on a map they don't enjoy.

Braidedheadman · 01-30-2008, 07:32 PM

Put it to a poll then so that we can deal with real numbers instead of conjecture. Either way, I don't feel I'll have lost much since the server doesn't offer the experience I am looking for anyway.

Quote:

people generally won't say "Wait, this server doesn't have 2fort in the rotation" /disconnect.

I do this...

01-29-2008, 12:05 AM	#18 (permalink)
Fish #641 Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 516	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Just for everyone's info, if me and Johnnyboy get on and TG is empty, we almost always start up a game, with people following close behind. So if seeding isn't really that big of an issue. I would rather see mach3 (is it 4 now?) more often than playing 2fort. There are of seeders, but I know some of them would rather not seed 2fort.

01-29-2008, 12:06 AM	#19 (permalink)
Bc2ID Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: In the shed fixing my lawnmower! Posts: 1,920	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? The picture in the first frame was used against us tonight. I agree it is a good placement, however that did not stop us from taking it down with ease. I am unaware of the engineer's point of view that set it up, but I hope he sees the post and comments. Thanks for the post Braided as it will only aid the community in placement techniques. __________________ "Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." Gen. George Patton

01-29-2008, 12:34 AM	#20 (permalink)
RandomGuy Join Date: May 2003 Location: K-W, Ont. Age: 27 Posts: 1,742	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? I'm just going to chime in to agree that 2fort is conducive to teamwork.

01-29-2008, 01:47 AM	#21 (permalink)
Braidedheadman Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 933	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? It's worth noting that an unsupported turret is a dead turret no matter where it's placed. The turret in the first frame is mostly there just to stop the initial scout rush, as it covers all possible entrances, and buy the engineer time to book it over to the enemy base if he intends to set up offensive frontlines there. It's downside is that it does not have as good a FOV down into the courtyard, making it vulnerable to demos and ubers coming up the stairs adjacent to the spawn room. Engineers should always have a defensive class hanging around for best results; SG + Sticky bombs are a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome. The second position is a little more hardened. I've modified the placement since I posted that tactical guide into a configuration that is more durable still and an engy can hold his own fairly well if he is suddenly cut off from support. Still, it has its weaknesses too and works best when either a heavy sits down near the dispenser or is protected by stickies and/or a secondary SG emplacement down the hall. I don't believe that any one map is better for teamwork than another as it all boils down to how people play the game rather than how it's built. There are several key points on this map that can be taken and held almost indefinitely, both offensive and defensive, with adequate teamwork - not the least of which is Enemy Intel rooms, as shown in the clip I linked to above. __________________ Last edited by Braidedheadman; 01-29-2008 at 02:16 AM. Reason: The Spelling & Grammar Nazi was here.

01-30-2008, 02:00 PM	#22 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? I don't agree that 2fort requires anymore or any less teamwork than other maps. It's pretty balanced and does offer a few different ways in combined with well defined choke-points. I do agree the 2fort suffers in both creativity and enjoyment. I personally don't find it fun because I've been playing the map off and on for around a decade. I am surprised that even players new to the TF series are bored with it, but I can't really blame them. It's like Dust2 for CS: it's just overplayed. But it is still a great map to bolster numbers during off-peak hours. The server was losing players at around midnight last night. We had a few SMs on, but the server was winding down. Loading up 2fort garnered us another 4-5 players almost immediately. Numbers aren't really my concern right now as the reg base for TG:TF2 is quite solid, but nothing sucks being stuck on a server you support with only a few people to blow up. I am considering an end-map rockthevote system, but BATs seems to be flaky on that. I am looking into other admin programs. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

01-30-2008, 03:31 PM	#23 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Ugh, I hate that keyword. Anyway, as long as an admin is on, we ought to just "@@ Please nominate nextmap." Mapvote popups irritate me to no end (they've ruined so many CSS innings for me...) and it promotes interaction with the @'s, which is good for the community. __________________

01-30-2008, 05:23 PM	#24 (permalink)
Fish #641 Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 516	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Is there a shortage of admins? I really haven't noticed.

01-30-2008, 05:42 PM	#25 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Admin coverage is pretty good. Rarely is there not an admin available either in game or via HLSW. But, the few times I ask: "Would you all prefer another map," responses are either "nah" or silence. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

01-30-2008, 06:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
Braidedheadman Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 933	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Might that not indicate that the actual number of people who have a problem with this map are, in fact, in the minority? There are a ton of 2Fort 24/7 servers out there, none of which would exist if the map were not entertaining. __________________

01-30-2008, 06:54 PM	#27 (permalink)
Fish #641 Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 516	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? I have a 24/7 2fort InstaSpawn server favorited, I use it to just blow off steam if I have like 15 minutes to play. I'll probably be on it for a bit when the new medic achievement comes out.

01-30-2008, 06:59 PM	#28 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Should 2Fort remain on the rotation? Unfortunately, 2Fort doesn't seem to be enough to trigger spontaneous genesis; It's been on 2Fort all day and I haven't seen any drifters come in and take root. If everyone wants to try to seed it tonight, I'll be on to play later tonight. __________________

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