TheFeniX

For the record we did and 2fort ranked just above Stronghold and lazytown, neither of which made the cut on the server. The only reason I didn't pull 2fort is because of the before mentioned public popularity and the fact that's it a retail map and no download is needed.

No offense, but if you have no plans on gaming on the TG:TF2 server, why does this even bother you? You've made it plainly obvious you don't like the server and the people who run it and nothing I (or anyone else) say(s) or do(es) is going to change your mind.

Did you come here to affect some change? Start some drama? Seriously, what is it because it's obvious that 2fort being on/off the TG:TF2 server is not the crux of your problem.

You base your approval/disapproval of a server off one stock map?

EDIT: I thought I should add: even if we did decide to pull 2fort from the rotation, it would be pointless for me to pull it from the server as HLDSupdate would just re-download it everytime the server rebooted. So the map would still be able to be selected. As a Supporting Member, you have access to limited admin abilities. One of these is the ability to start a mapvote. So if there were enough people who wanted 2fort, you could call a vote and play it anyways.

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Braidedheadman

Let me put it this way: I prefer 2Fort 24/7 servers if only for the fact that they offer the most consistent CTF mode of play. That way I don't have to slog through the button/push maps, which I'll play but don't enjoy nearly as much.

I'm not here to stir up drama, I assure you. But, at the same time, this new turn bothers me because I'm a supporting member who feels (as do some others, I might add) that his supporting membership has been trivialized and has thus been wasted to a certain extent on account of certain overly aggressive policies that were enacted with regard to TF2, my next choice in online gaming after PoE2.

Are there side issues that contribute to how I currently feel? Yes, I will admit that there are. From almost the start, it was made fairly clear that certain elements here at TG were unwelcome and playing on the TF2 server was a downright hostile experience at times.

Removing 2Fort, while unrelated to that, is, as I've said, just another reason for me not to play on the server and further dilutes the returns that I expect for contributing to this community (which at this point amount to zilch). And therein lies the true crux of my objections here: that is to say that the value of being a supporting member and my incentives to play on a server that I ought to be able to call home are (or are under threat of) being diluted once again.

I really would like to feel welcomed at the server and not have to worry about who I play with, when, where, or how. I really would like to play TF2 with all of my TG buddies and not have to rely on the good graces of pubby servers. I really would like to feel like I have a home here. But none of these things have panned out that way. And to my credit, if I may be so bold as to say, I've kept my peace up until now.

But there comes a point in time where one needs to ask hard questions and, for me at least, discussions relating to removing one of my favorite maps from the roster provokes those sorts of questions. Moreover, I feel obligated, if only to myself in order to satisfy the axiom, "Qui tacet consentire videtur ubi loqui debuit ac potuit (he who is silent is given to consent when he ought to have spoken and was able to)," to see that my voice is raised and is heard when I have an objection to make. What comes of it after that is, as it has been in the past, out of my hands. But at least I'll have done my part.

If that constitutes "drama" in your eyes, well, I apologize - it is not my intent. That is simply how I feel and I believe we (SMs) are all entitled to some opinion as to how activities should be coordinated around here regardless of how (in)frequently we participate in them.

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Apophis

2Fort is the original Team Fortress map. It has been in the game since.. well.. forever. It would be a shame to have it removed.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

Bc2ID

Let me start off my statement by saying that I enjoy gaming with you and have had no problems with you in the past. I have served under you in POE and have had some really good experiences.

However, as I have stated in the past..... Things at TG:TF2 have changed and you are doing an injustice to yourself and the other TG members by not recognizing that. I think everyone here would welcome you, when was it when you did not feel welcome? As I also previoulsy stated, no one is forced to game on the server. You must feel some connection though as to post strategies and suggestions. There has been no "hostility" (your choice of words), or drama on the server in a very long time.

I do believe in your "right" to have a say in how the server operates. However your "right" is diminished because of your "choice" not to game on it.

I do not want this to turn into a flame war. As I have stated, you are more than welcome to join us on the server. We would be very happy to have you and your tactical knowledge of the map. I agree with you about leaving 2fort in the rotation, but I also understand why people do not want to play it. I really hope that you will bury any "hatchet" that you bear against your fellow TG members here and come and give us another shot. Not to publicize any particular group, but the 6th games on Mondays and you are welcome to join us on the TG server.

Braided, as always you can reach me by PM, if you want to discuss this any further.

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TheFeniX

What overly aggressive policies? I checked through your old posts in the forums and your only real concern seems to have been rules concerning IHSs at TF2. There have never been any rules that govern IHS at TG:TF2 and I never felt any were needed. A player sporting an IHS Tag was never harassed on the server from what I saw, in fact some were/are even on the admin team.

I never heard anything about it and I can't/couldn't fix problems I don't know about. And if players felt that I couldn't be trusted to handle the issue, they could have contacted Apophis and showed him evidence. Action will be taken on players creating a hostile gaming experience.

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. And I agree, but I can't know about how certain players feel about the server if they aren't contributing their opinion.

I don't really need anyone to keep their peace.

Many SMs slogged through the early drama of the server/forums and have helped me and the admin team move past that and create a great gaming experience on the server where SMs, regs, and pubs hold the experience in pretty high regard. And this attitude gets better everday as more input is fed to me and decisions are based on all that info being used. Not to say their opinion immediately trumps yours, but they've been with me in the trenches through the drama, valve update instability, and plug-in issues. They know where the short-comings of the server are and they help me work to correct them. I've always believed that you get back what you put in at TG.

I may be a GO, but that doesn't make me anywhere near perfect. My own experiences will govern my decisions on certain issues. I became an SM because, at the core, I support this community. And even when I saw drama and rules I didn't agree with in NS, PCS, and even the early days of the BF2 server, I still hung around because I knew it would pass/get better. Hell, as an admin, I enforced rules I didn't even agree with because that's just part of the job. I've never expected (and never received from what I can remember) any special treatment because I front money to TG. Like I said, that's just my personal experience. Other player's mileage may differ.

I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, I honestly did not know what your intent was, so I may have been defensive based off confusion and I apologize. But you have to understand, I haven't seen anything from you in the forums or on the server. Your post came at me out of the blue talking about 2fort when it was readily apparent that it wasn't your main issue with the server. No one's a mind-reader, so I need it laid out for me sometimes.

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TheFeniX

Tell you what: you relieve me as engineer on 2fort so I get the chance to see some sunshine and you can have allllll the 2fort you want. Just watch out for Magna, he will try and make sweet love to your sentry.

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Fish #641

<missing youtube clip of Magna and a Sentry>

Braidedheadman

Well, OK, so things have changed, so I'm told. But what would happen if, one day, all of the 5th suddenly decided to join the server and wound up all playing on the same side of the fence? I mean, isn't that what started all the drama in TF2's early days in the first place? The fact that friends, IHS teams specifically, were forbad any opportunity to form up and play together as teams because it might destabilize the server? And that somewhere along the way assumptions were made to the effect that IHS teams have a perpetual need to band up would see them lined up in spectator mode waiting to manufacture the teams to their liking and would continually be contributing toward killing the server population each night? And isn't the only reason we don't see much more drama here by way of that topic at this time because those who were once involved in it are no longer present? I find it hard to believe that the thinly veiled hostility of those days has so soon been forgotten.

I may have my wires crossed; Lord knows I'm not perfect either. But I do remember witnessing what was happening around me at the time and thinking to myself, "Gee... Why do I want to hang around all this? What could possibly convince me to stick around and become the next target?" So I cut my losses short and have found my way through the pubby circuit these past months.

I would like to believe that TG-TF2 sports a different atmosphere, that IHS teams can form up and play as they please, though I'll note - again - that IHS members are by and large a responsible enough lot to recognize when teaming up is not in the best interests of the server as a whole. But I'm afraid that I'll need some convincing of any of that.

Meh. I don't want this to become a point-by-point argument either; it's tiresome, and it's been done before, which is mainly why you don't see much in the way of posts from me regarding the topic. I felt that what was being said at the time covered any material I may wish to have contributed to and did not want to add further to the "drama". I only spoke up here because electing to remove 2Fort simply pushed my feelings on the matter to the boiling point, as FeniX duly noted, and they bubbled to the surface.

Believe me when I say it's not my intent to cause drama, carry grudges, or hijack this thread with off topic remarks. I believe I've said my peace here and any further correspondence I may have will either be done in a new thread or via PMs.

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TheFeniX

If it just happened by random chance? Not much to be done. If you guys were running the rounds, 3 wins on CTF/CP or 9 points on a Attackers/Defenders the server would change the map. If the skill stack was that apparent, then I'd hope you'd police yourselves in the next map.

I will say this: teamstacking isn't as big an issue as I thought it would be at TG:TF2. Hell, we've had a number of TG players on one team against a pub team. From looking at HLSW, you'd swear it was a stack. The reality was: we were getting our rumps roasted.

There is no rule against IHSs joining the same team, or even TG members joining the same team and there never was. The one instance "action" was taken against an IHS was during a game where a team full of pubs were getting dominated. A comment was made by one pub asking "could this not be a clan stack please?" An admin then asked for the teams not to be stacked and a mass exodus took place.

Anyways, new configs kind of override that as I have setup TF2 to not allow games that one-sided to continue very long. At this point: admins are only enforcing rules that are listed on the Server Rules topic. Any enforcement outside that scope needs to be reported to me.

For the record, I don't hold grudges. At this point, that early drama is behind me and I'm working towards making TG:TF2 a better server by the day and I've got lots of help. If anyone wants to be a part of then: great. We can use all the help that's offered. But I'm not going to start marching back through old territory. I apologized for my part in all that and have tried to move forward since.

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Braidedheadman

Fair enough. I commented to BC in a PM conversation we had that this is not about holding grudges; it's about politics and we should all guard against taking stuff like this personally. Opinions may differ at times but that shouldn't diminish anyone here.

Peace.

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Avs

Once the server's custom map rotation is expanded more and includes more quality custom maps to offer, 2fort wont seem as bad because it will be played less, and so when it is played its more "fresh" and enjoyable.