Fish #641

The 7th map to be officially released (Ctf_Well doesn't count because it sucks), how does everyone enjoy it? I'm going to have to hold off reviewing it until further testing, but I'll give my first impressions about the classes.
Scout- It seems that this class would be ideal with his double jump and the open areas, but a level 2 sentry can easily stop this guy from scaling the 2nd cap points' mountains.
Soldier- Another obvious favorite. He can rocket jump straight to the top of the mountains and up to the bridge. His downside is that the open areas might let his rockets get dodged.
Pyro- Seemingly a disfavored class, as there is plenty of time to shoot this guy down before his gets close. Fortunately for the Pyros, there is multiple paths to flank and a couple of really enclosed areas for him to burninate.
Demoman- This guy has similar advantages and disadvantages as the soldier, but may be a better pick, as his sticky jump can get him across the map VERY quickly, and he can deny areas with his grenades.
Heavy- So far, it seems that the Heavy doesn't really favor or disfavor this map (prove me wrong), because he suffers his normal drawbacks. He can shoot quickly and deal damage, but he is an immediate target and isn't very accurate.
Engineer- I can't objectively assess the engineer (even though this is subjective), as I hate to play him, so I rarely look for good SG spots. Sorry.
Medic- No serious advantages or disadvantages.
Sniper- The sniper has plenty of open areas, but he appears to lack cover.
Spy- Like his messed up backstab registries, the spy is a wild card. On one hand, he does his normal spy stuff effectively. He backstabs snipers, distrupt engis, and stops pushes. On the other hand, spies are more obvious. Sapping a sentry gun draws fire from everyone, so coordinating with your team to disable as everyone is pushing is a must, so you can disappear and move ahead.

But those are just my first impressions. How does everyone else feel?

MagnaCentipede

It's far too early to be saying anything. But on first impression, Spy seems to be a dog on this map. The close areas are too tight to avoid bodychecks and the open areas either drain your watch before you get anywhere useful and disguise doesn't buy you enough time to get anywhere useful. That leads to a lot of pistolwork, and with the prevalence of Scouts, pistol isn't attractive. Also, nearly every ledge is fall-damage height, meaning a Spy often cannot bail, or even quickly get to a position, without twisting an ankle.

Scout is huge here. Sentries are sentries, but a scout's far more apt to be able to pistol one down, and if a demo pops it, Scout is straight to the top.

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Bc2ID

Nice Fish!

I agree, Spy's are a tough class to beat on this map. I remember Magna ans Spade having a field day with the map. Snipers, if placed correctly can also do some heavy damage.

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Fish #641

That's what I was hoping, but I couldn't find a good vantage point. The top of the mountains didn't let me cover the correct areas, but I didn't spend enough time looking for the perfect spot. Again, time will tell.

MagnaCentipede

B2: By dog I meant ineffective. My score was in the bottom half, below Spade and Fish, who were both part-time spying. An observation that does not put a curve on my face that can be described with a quadratic equation featuring a positive second-power co-efficient.

I had a much better round this night than last. I think the effects of three hours sleep and spending a day on the beach building an access walkway were adverse to my stabbins. Not that stabbins actually works. It's still more-screwed-up after the patch.


I expect the strong sniper is the one who can change positions frequently while keeping his scope on a point that's under attack. You can't just stand there like a dork á-la 2Fail, and you can't lose track of the action or you'll either be in the wrong spot or you'll make new friends in a hurry.

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Fish #641

Wow Magna. You spent too much thought on that post. A lot of maps have certain points that are really useful to sniping, but it is nice to know that it makes you angry when me and Spade beat you.

MagnaCentipede

It makes me angry anytime anything happens which is contrary to what I want to see happen. Every stab that doesn't register, every crit-rocket-outta-nowhere, every facestab that doesn't kill, every revolver bullet that flies off to the side, every second the server is on Dustbowl...

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Fish #641

What's wrong with Dustbowl?

Sirusblk

I agree with Magna, the stabbings of a spy only work when a character is standing still. The animation is so slow. Spy's are truly made out of paper.

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Fish #641

Nooo Spade is becoming as jaded as Magna!

Ponicus

Hmm, maybe its a balancing act they Valve is trying to find so backstab isn't TOO overpowered? Seems to me you spys do quite well most of the time and get a decent number of backstabs throughout the game. If a counter used to avoid backstabs is to keep moving then that isn't a class-breaker. I know of plenty times Magna has backstabbed me while I was running in a direction so it isn't just effective when an enemy is completely still.

Just trying to play the other side of the coin here in this backstab debate.

Doktor Goku

What I've noted with good spies is that they all get frustrated with the issues inherent to the class- but are dedicated enough to stick it out. Most players have their favorite one or two classes, but can switch whenever necessary (or even if they feel like it)- whereas the good spy players really work themselves beyond the bugs and issues. At that point, they are absurdly good and incredibly effective; they are essentially pro players. I can definitely understand why it would seem that anything further will make the spies too powerful- but just think about how good the rest of us will have to become to catch up! People will further specialize in their clases, and have to eternally watch their back (pun intended). The spy hits you where you least expect it- it's a chaotic, directed class. Allowing the spy to do this even further can only enhance the game, I think :P

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Doc-in-training

Fish #641

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one, Doktor. I think that once you play a certain class a lot (or too much, in Magna's case), you start to get more and more agitated (if that's how you spell it) with little bugs in each class. I've played Spy about 100 less hours than Magna, and while it's still my most played class and one of my best, the missed backstabs don't make me as frustrated as they make Magna.

Doktor Goku

I could see that. I guess until we become that fixated, we won't know for certain :P

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Doc-in-training

Avs

Spies are like the best class in TF2. I remember the days when spies ruled TF2. Wait, they STILL DO. Gotta step it up magna!