ROCKS

After playing heavy for a while against the new Pyro 3.0 I find one of the things I had to get used to most was the:
Removed Flamethrower's damage falloff (was falling off to 25% by the end.(
Used to be if you where on a ledge above the pyro where the tips of his flames tickled you, you where basically safe from much harm. These days those tips dont tickle so much, more like burn. It also gives them more damage earlier. They used to have to get up close and personal to do real damage.

Target priorization has also obviously changed. Used to be Heavies, Then the rest. Before the peanut galery chimes in, NO, you never target the medic of the heavy before the heavy. Unless you want to find yourself dead. Demomen are next for me cause they can drop me with three stickies under me while im spinning but the truth is its very situational. But the point is now if I have a pyro coming in to strafing me with that retched backburner, one places him higher on the priority list.

Its been hard though with so many pyros running around. Like someone said, well have to see how the dynamics play out when the fad dies down.

Headshot Yoshi

Pyro is newbier than what the solider class once was. Everyone hated soliders crit rockets, pyros have like the equivalent of crit rockets all the time.

Really, unless a server has more than 12 people, if someone goes pyro I leave. It's really no fun getting touched by the flamethrower for half a second, helplessly running for a medpack and dying, then having the pyro come back thinking he's all badass. Unless valve balances this its less TF2 for me.

MagnaCentipede

I'm feeling the same way. I don't want to mind pyroes, but it's bad enough that I've tolerated being caught aflame from a mile away under normal circumstances; today a pryo that was 1.5-times the flamethrower's reach did a quick spin-and-blow, and I instantly took 121 damage. I know because I checked my HP, and glimpsed it go from 4 to 1 from the burn. It wasn't a crit, it was just absurd.

When half my bullets don't register, and when they make pyro two bullets tougher -- Soldier's 200HP was always a gut-check or a crit gamble -- there's just no reason to try anymore. Even when I manage clean shots on pryo backs, they just don't-die and instagib me. I haven't spent this much time in limbo, cursing no-reg, or wondering why I'm spending my time in <this game> since <this game> was Counterstrike Source.

__________________

Headshot Yoshi

You can't say anything on the valve forums either. The career pyros vastly outnumber the snipers/spies/other classes, if I say anything they'll just tell me that I need to camp on the top of 2fort some more charging shots and engaging in boring sniper wars.

...seriously.

MagnaCentipede

Steam forums is steam forums. I posted in one of the spy threads amd the immediate response was:I hax. T_T

__________________

ROCKS

Well, maybe they will return the drop off. I think it would make the pyro near perfect in balance. A great ambusher from behind, the extra hp lets him ambush and get out alive. As it stands the minigun no longer wins out against those guys unless I catch them outside the flame radius.

Headshot Yoshi

They need to lower the damage output altogether. Pyros were already pretty effective even though their flames didnt hit all the time. Now that they do, its basically a damage buff.

Fish #641

That video's misleading. It's basically saying that if you get caught in a pyro's flame (without killing him from any range before that), then you stand still in it the entire time (flames have a tendency to not hit, especially at the edge of their flame) without killing him (you should've weakened him before he got close), then yes, you'll die quite quickly. How fast do heavies kill at that same distance? How about we test SG's? What if we see how fast a sniper can hit a non-moving target from any range? Furthermore, even if you bring dropoff back (I'm not necessarily against this, but all of the BBQQ'ing in the forums is getting pathetic), at least make it similar to other weapons. For instance, the flamethrower was dropping off to 25% damage at the end (source: update), whereas the rocketlauncher only drops off to 40% at the end (source: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=634129). And since this is happening in a matter of feet, it's frankly a bit ridiculous that stepping forward will increase your damage (or stepping backwards decrease) so dramatically.

Ferris Bueller

I find the whole thing really funny. No, really, I do.

Some people here haver a valid right to gripe about certain things. Magna, for example, is our professional spy. Spy is a broken class and the boys at valve seem to think that it's not worth fixing, so he's stuck playing what is essentially a crap class, and yet he's a freaking monster at it. Imagine how unfair you would all think it was if valve did something radical for spy, like fixing backstab registration for example. Magna would be going like 200-0.

The thing that gets me most is that I hear all the crap whining and groaning about the pyro. Boo-freaking-hoo. So you now have to use a modicum of skill to kill one instead of being able to just run and gun him because his ranged damage isnt crap anymore. Oh no, you cant insta-headhsot or insta-rocket a pyro now! So unfair!

I find it even funnier that all the people who claim that pyros used to be effective in gameplay are the ones that NEVER PLAY PYRO! I've been playing it since day one. Everyone around here knows that. I can tell you that 99% of the time before the pyro update, going up to the frontlines of battle was guaranteed death. No medic would ever uber you, you had no chance of killing sentries, god help you if there was a sniper around, and any other class with a strong long range weapon (read: scout, heavy, spy, sniper, demoman, soldier and even medic at times) would whip you down to 0 health before you could open up with the flamethrower. Even if you did get close enough, the damage falloff was so severe (not to mention lack of hit reg for fire) that you had to sput the barrel of the flamethrower in someone's chest to do any real damage. Pyro was an ambush class, which was quite boring. It was designed to be an area-denial class like the engineer and now they've fixed it so it works.

So now the pyro has a fighting chance to survive, and its not even that great of a chance when a pyro goes up against a skilled player. Ask magna. Sure I win a good amount of battles against him, but if he pulls that revolver before I get close enough, I'm hosed!

Everyone whines and complains about it because everyone got so used to being able to own the crap out of pyros that getting up close and personal with one didnt bother them (since the pyro essentially had to be at point blank to do any real damage with the flamethrower). Now you actually have to use ranged weapons the way they're supposed to be used! MY GOD! HOW HORRIBLE!

It's really going to be quite amusing for me to watch as valve rolls out the updates for the other classes and when they update each of your primary characters to watch people go ape**** over your new toys and you have to constantly deal with people whining about them.

Try adapting your play style folks. The game is evolving, learn to cope with that.

__________________
|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Fish #641

I...actually...agree with Ferris. Wow.

ROCKS

Personally I was one to say that Pyro needed a buff. I can live with the guy as is though I think there should be a drop off to reward true ambushing. I would consider these forums more philosophy and game theory than griping. More like a conversation about Platos Republic or an intellectual coffee talk about the which Bronte sister wrote best. I enjoy the game however its fed to me.

But tweaks are bound to follow once all the characters have their goodies ensuring that the game considered one of the most balanced ever continues to live up to that.

Headshot Yoshi

If that flamethrower is on me for even a fraction of a second, im toast. Sure you have a fighting chance against the combat classes, sure, but now you completely obliterate the smaller weaker classes.

Fish #641

But the 125hp classes still each have a counter for the pyro. Engi's have SG's, Snipers have range (and when you actually ran at a reasonable time when we were doing one-on-one Yoshi, you avoided me pretty easily), Spies have revolver (notice I say ackstab-bay for fear of Agma-may), and Scouts have speed and double-jump (interesting side note: I killed 3 out of maybe the 4 or 5 pyros that I've encountered since the update as scout without getting hurt at all. One hurt me and I killed him and the other killed me).

MagnaCentipede

Engineers must have an SG and teammates to assist them.
Snipers get exactly one shot and then they die because they must charge to kill a pyro.
Revolver is only effective against poofter pyroes. Invincible pyroes require epic crit streaks to defeat.
Scouts can indeed evade and are the only class that can escape a pyro, but they must invest a lot of ammunition to halt a pyro. And if they catch a pro flaregun they lose.

__________________

Headshot Yoshi

Fish, the thing is most of the time you weren't running straight for me. If you did so with the flamethrower, which is what many pyros do, and they win.

The thing is, pyro is now a combat class. Heavies and soliders can both kill me just the same ease, except they aren't fast enough to catch up to me if I run. Demomen are as fast as me, however they do not do enough direct damage to be a direct threat to me while running. Pyros on the other hand are fast and their flamethrower drops you in a second, garenteed.

I don't think valve should revert the pyro to its previous state. The pyro did need a minor buff. Instead it got a major buff, so it just needs a minor nerf to balance it out and make playing pyro require a bit of skill again.