Fish #641

Corrections:
Engi's shouldn't be out and about without anything/anyone to protect him. A pyro should never get close to a sniper unless the team's incompetent or the sniper's ahead of the team. A BB pyro takes just as many revolver shots to kill as a soldier. Skilled Scouts take about 3 or 4 shots average to take out a BB pyro.

Heavies can't catch up to a sniper. If you're outside, soldiers can catch up with a rocketjump very easily. And if you're inside, they don't really have to aim to blow you to bits with splash damage. Smart demomen will sticky in front of and behind you, then detonate. And demomen and soldiers should really be the only people you have to worry about getting close realistically, seeing as they can get to you faster than a pyro.

Headshot Yoshi

A pro sniper named Bloodshire on valve forums posted a video explaining the problem with the new pyro. Maybe now you'll understand where the problem lies:

Fish #641

B||oodsire seems to be a pro-complainer on the forums, but the main problem is that your team wasn't dealing with the pyro whatsoever. Notice under the class selection screen, it says above sniper "Support". That means that a sniper shouldn't be able to kill every single class out there without a hitch. The pyro wasn't even paying attention to B||ood's team, seeing as, even when they happened to be there, they were attacking other people, playing like the pyro wasn't a threat (read: pre-update). Besides, how many people are out there saying, "YEAH FLARE GUN!" ? The only things I've seen about the flare gun are "Wow, flare gun sucks. Why on earth would I equip this?"

Headshot Yoshi

I would kind of figure that the pyros lack of range would make the SNIPER the ideal class to deal with him (and thats actually exactly the way it was before the patch). I can't deal with every class. I have trouble with scouts, spies (not the stabby kind, more the magna-revolver-me-in-the-face kind), and any class at close range. That's more than enough counters.

Tarenth

Wait, he's a pro? Seriously? Man and here I thought I was only a middling sniper. If he's a pro then I must be a pro too!

In all seriousness what ever happened to running away and picking your shots if seen? If you're going to get sucked into the gamestyle of the pyro, then the pyro is going to win. It is a primary offensive class while the sniper is support. The flare gun projectiles ARE slow, but if you're going to try and dance under suppressive fire of it then you're going to get burned and then you're going to fail. If you're going to jump into melee with the pyro or try to not kite them until you're on fire then you're also going to fail.

He complains about not being able to snipe while on fire, and yet keeps trying anyhow until the pyro serves up a hot serving of death. He could've run away and sought out a health pack or let the fire fade before trying to snipe again, but I guess that's too hard when getting killed being stupid is a better arguement.

I love his arguement as a heavy. The pyro does exactly what a pyro-medic combo should do in that situation. Hide! There he is blasting away at crates while the pyro takes pot shots to keep him burning and damaged and the medic is laughing and healing up any damage the pyro takes. Lrn2Flank. GG

While messing around last night I was killing pyros as a MEDIC using the syringe gun. See pyro, run from pyro, shoot at pyro. You'll still suffer from burning death if you get caught in some dark alley from behind, but in the open if they don't switch to their secondary (as the pyro in the video never did until he tried to negate the sniper's advantage and because the sniper was stupid) then you run the same speed and your mid-range weapon has a bit more punch against something that doesn't reach.

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Headshot Yoshi

You evidently don't play a lot of sniper... If the pyro has the flamethrower on you for a fraction of a second, then you will burn to death quickly and many times you are nowhere near a healthpack. If he has it on you for half a second, you are dead. All pyros run around with now is the backburner, which means they have more health than a solider and are faster than it too, and pyros have absolutely no reason NOT to run after you, since when they close in you're pretty much helpless, and on many maps it is easy to close in.

You are talking in theory. The people who actually play the sniper class professionally are complaining that theres a problem. I play sniper a lot, and I know theres a problem.

Fish #641

I play demoman "professionally", and if someone else is with me taking hits instead of me, I can kill anything and everything. Unfortunately, if I'm getting attacked, it's much more difficult for me to take down SG's and other prime targets. It's the same principle. If as a sniper, you're by yourself trying to Rambo everyone, you're going to die. You SHOULD die. However, if you're with your team SUPPORTing it, then the Pyro will have reason to not run after you. Then you can headshot him and get it over with.

Headshot Yoshi

I try to stay with my team, but not every map calls for that situation. Many maps have close quarters areas which is not exactly the place I want to hang out in, and on some maps I'm playing slightly more defensively so following my team into the other base on 2fort isn't the best idea.

All I really want is the damage dropoff back and maybe slightly less HP on the backburner so the compressed air actually looks like a viable option. Surviving an encounter who had their flamethrower on me for a split second is all I really want, because typically even if im with my team, the pyro doesn't even have to be aiming for me, but manages to kill me anyway.

ROCKS

I kind of agree with the Fish though I understand the frustrations from Yoshi. The flare gun needs about the same time to reload as the sniper rifle and has the same reach (albeit slower). Maybe the flare gun should have a faster drop to limit its effective reach. However, if a pyro gets into the back field you have your team to blame for not stopping him a the front. There is no reason a sniper should live if the pyro gets the jump on him in the back field. Now, if I see a pyro in the distance and want to make a run for it, maybe you could make the case for a speed buff. Lets see what happens in the sniper changes, they may have already contemplated something for him that will bring things back into check.

Tarenth

I love the compressed air. Its well worth the less hp in my opinion since it opens up a whole slew of other possibilities. My personal favorites are uber juggling and sentry guarding. The ability to bounce back explosives and guard your engineer's little toys tends to endear you more than going commando behind enemy lines.

And the point Yoshi is trying to make is the exact same point I was making. You shouldn't put yourself in a position where the pyro CAN reach you without jumping through flaming hoops (right, bad example but the metaphore still stands) and a freaken tank of sharks with lasers on their heads. If you're bringing your sniper into CQC then you've failed as a sniper. However if a pyro jumps you in an ambush then your team has failed to support you.

Oh yeah. If the situation isn't exactly favorable to a sniper and calls for something else, there is a very novel feature in TF2. You can change classes. If you want the sniper to be an appropriate class for long ranged, mid ranged, and close quarters combat then you're asking for a bit too much.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

TheSkudDestroyer

I have no sympathy for over inflated "pros" egos that are getting butthurt by the pyro.

• You choose to play a class that has limited movement while scoped in.

• You choose to play a class that is 125 health

• You choose to play sniper.

• If a pyro is cunning enough to sneak around your team and kill you, kudos.

Valve yesterday fine tuned the dropoff of the pyro's attack. Regardless, if you're on fire - you're on fire. That's the catch of the pyro! Even if he just lights you on fire, you still burn! WOW!

Should valve have to bend over backwards to make snipers super important so you have no trouble killing anything?

God forbid sniping become a challenge. Sniping is a joke - No, not everyone can do it. But I think it's time snipers suck it up and realize a couple of things:

• Your job is not to get kills. It is to get kills when the team needs them. Your score comes secondary to helping the team. A successful sniper is one who makes all the shots count when his team needs him - not one on top of the scoreboard. (This applies to every single class in game, in it's own way). The name of the game is TEAM Fortress 2. Not "I'm part of the team that should win" Fortress 2 or "My score is huge" Fortress 2. NOPE! It's TEAM Fortress 2! The game is designed around objective based gameplay with teamwork winning the game more often than raw skill. It's like the Developers made this game for a TG community.

• You will always have 3 fatal weaknesses that every class easily exploits.

1. Limited visibility while scoped in
2. Limited motion while scoped in
3. You are weak and ultimately depend on teammates or healthpacks

• Your class is skill dependent and is tied directly to your ability to get headshots. Although body-shots do a lot of damage, ultimately most of your kills arise from headshots.

• You're not any more important than any other team member.

Yes, the pyro may have *some* balancing issues right now - this is going to happen with EVERY new valve update. But what I've found with every update to any game is Adapt & Overcome. If you cannot do this, then you have no right to piss and moan on every internet forum related to TF2 just because you can't do what you used to do. Oh BAWWWW you're not on the top of the scoreboard. If your enjoyment from a game only comes from personal achievement instead of TEAM achievement in TEAM FORTRESS 2 then you might as well find a different game.

And while we're on the topic,

Can I get an AMEN?!

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Beatnik

Bloody good post, Skud.

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Fish #641

Headshot Yoshi

First off, if a pyro flanks me, just like a spy backstabs me, or a sniper scopes in and headshots, I don't complain, he deserves the kill. You're making it a little more personal than it has to be.

My problem was that he has so much health, and pyros who never actually play the class would run at me from the other side of the map in basically a straight line, hold down mouse1, have the flamer on me for a nanosecond, and it would be too late for me to do anything since all my health would be drained.

I know I'm not invincible, I don't know when I made it sound like I should be, I know when I should run away and I know I can be overwhelmed. But when it comes down to 1v1 pyro vs sniper, the pyro should have a very good chance at winning at close range, just like I have a very good chance at winning against him at long range, which was simply not the case before.

The difference is that I've played both pyro and sniper since the patch so I know how it is from both perspectives. You only play pyro and you're telling me what you think I SHOULD be doing. It was amazingly easy to kill all the 125 hp classes, especially if they're trying to run. If they try to run with their back facing you theres a good chance the backburner will level them, if you run way pelting them with the SMG, you're slower and they'll catch up and kill you all the same.

Regardless, since the patch there's been an improvement. I've survived more encounters with pyros when retreating. I'm still not a fan of the flare gun or +50hp bonus but yeah I'll probably live with it and adapt. I'll be sure to tell you that when snipers get the fire extinguisher as a secondary weapon which prevents pyros from using fire-related weapons.

TheSkudDestroyer

Isn't the flare gun slower than a rocket?

What's the base damage on a rocket?

Base for flare is 6, plus DoT. Crit flare is 12, plus DoT.

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|TG-6th|Skud
6.5 weeks Lackland AFB
8 months Keesler AFB, 1W0X1 - Weather