Sniper unlocks discussion

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-01-2008, 02:22 PM

Yeah so I've been thinking about the best solution for making some quality sniper unlocks for whenever they come out. I tried not making any crazy suggestions, I actually looked at problems snipers have. Here's what I got:

Primary: Sniper Rifle
Problem: The TF2 Sniper rifle is a weapon designed for camping and immobility. While this works fine for newer snipers, better snipers often are more mobile, only take quick shots, and so on. Being a mobile sniper is an "alternative style of play" which these unlocks seek to encourage, so why not base something upon that?

Suggestion: Sniper is still all about the headshots and should remain to be. By now I think we're all used to the TF2 style of play where one headshot does not necessarily mean instant kill. Any combination of something like, allowing the sniper to fire faster, allow him to move faster (when scoped or on the move), maybe a bit more body shot damage. Honestly I haven't nailed down the benefits of this weapon, if you have suggestions then tell me.

Negatives: Can only charge half way. This means that snipers with this new rifle would be unable to kill heavies or buffed soldiers (possibly buffed demomen and pyros as well, as valve sees fit with their play testing) with a single headshot. This would actually punish players who are using the weapon and still charge and camp. Snipers will essentially lose their ability to effectively take out heavy/medic combos, and have more difficulty dealing with buffed enemies.

Secondary: Crossbow
Problem: The SMG makes a poor retreat weapon. It's mainly good for taking out enemies whom are weak, and a "last resort" weapon, but in reality every sniper knows its not reliable. Plus, it seems so unlike the sniper to have a "spray and pray" weapon, which he's a class that relies on accurate and slow shooting.

Benefits: The crossbow would do more damage, but would act like a grenade or flaregun. It can't be used to take on clusters of enemies, can be dodged, and can't be used as an alternate sniper rifle but it seems more fitting of the snipers "take an accurate shot" mentality.

Negatives: It wouldn't be as effective against taking on weakened enemies whom are retreating. Also if you're a frantic sniper, since its not a spray weapon you will be at a disadvantage when you are on the run.

Melee: Water Buffalo Machete? (crappy name, I know, I don't have a better one)
Problem: I don't see any real problem with the Kukri, melee is last resort option. I guess just to add an alternative play style option.

Benefits: I was thinking of something like the more HP an enemy currently has, the more damage you inflict on him. So lets say you're dealing with something like a spy. The initial attack will do more damage then would be with the Kukri, however the second attack since the spy is injured, will not do as much damage, to the extent that perhaps it does no damage if their health is low enough. This would make the sniper more viable if he was attacking with his teammates, and if he actually gets close enough to a heavy he could inflict large amounts of damage with his melee.

Negatives: He actually has to get close to the class to use it, and that's virtually the death zone for the sniper. It will also make him less effective in melee fights against weaker classes since it'll do less damage since their HP is lower.

Comment: Really melee could be anything. Something like the machete doing an instant crit against a target you've headshotted, maybe a successful melee means his next sniper shot is fully charged up, or even like a vampire Kukri where he gains a bit of health whenever he attacks.

**MagnaCentipede** · 08-01-2008, 03:41 PM

In my letter I touched briefly about where skill belongs.

Everyone who's seen me in action knows I'm famous for taking Spy out of context. I risk, and often lose, my lives engaging hard targets because hard targets like demoes and soldiers and heavies know that even though they have an advantage stats-wise, I'm bringing a 50/50 fight to the table even if they stop what they're doing and focus on me.

I see the mobile sniper in the same light as the combat spy and battle engie... You are trading one of your primary functions outright (sniper loses charged shots, spy loses disguise and cloak and knife functionality, engineer leaves his gear exposed if he's fighting) in order to attempt to gain a new function, and that move is only profitable if your skill at the new function is more valuable than the function you give up.

Giving sniper more speed would mean he would just do the bullcrap from CSS, where a sniper strafes out, instagibs, and gets behind the wall again before the target's computer even receives the kill event notification. And it would take less skill since accuracy in TF2 is not affected by motion, while in CSS you at least must train the ability to fire exactly when your momentum is zero.

I want to say that scoped body blows should be stronger, but in principle, how much? At some point it becomes better to aim for the mass than the head. And what of no-scopes? No-scope requires a certain amount of skill (I deliberately do not sidetrack where this statement could go) and if No-scope is better too then it becomes Revolver with better damage and accuracy for lower fire rate (I would drop spy if that happened, at least until knife is fixed and even then...) and if not, then you take away sniper's ability to take a hip-shot when ambushed. Personally I would go with no-scope being unaffected and body blows being worth more when scoped, but not much, and with a limit. I.e., the headshot scale would be the same, but the body shots would be calculated with charge + 20% or similar.
Punishing the charging camper is right-out. We even had a movie about the fact that Sniper is supposed to go no-where for any reason short of being shot at or needing to call mum.

I would go with the following:
Normal crit chance for all attacks.
Headshots and 100% charge shots remove any buff before dealing damage.
25% faster charge.

This rifle is specifically suited for the charge sniper who is helping his team break through medic comboes, and the headshot rule allows a snapshot to the head to drop up to 200HP (the freshly-buffed Heavy) off of a target. This gives him a very strong assist role rather than randomly plinking light classes and maybe assisting/finishing a tank who got away from or lost his medic. Removing the auto-crit on headshots preserves the original rifle as the assassination tool for combat and aggro snipers, who now see the charge shot as a secondary ability that can drop big/buffed enemies in a pinch.

SMG is a cop-out. It was the nail-gun's re-model that was dumped in favor of the scattergun's cool-factor. That said, the weapon fits. The sniper by definition shouldn't be going to war, and his sidearm should be something light and annoying. (A sniper wouldn't be carrying an arsenel around) The best, fitting, replacement I can think of is to get away from weapon completely since he doesn't really need it, and instead give him a motion sensor. Placed on the ground, it would have about 8 metre range and would beep when an enemy entered the radius. (Trigger once then it is removed from play) Just enough time to get out of scope and pull kukri or to get out of Dodge.

I don't like weapons that are just someone else's weapon. Hence, a flaregun that doesn't set people on fire but is still just flaregun disturbs me.

"The initial attack will do more damage then would be with the Kukri, however the second attack since the spy is injured"
Yes, that 195 damage gave me a boo-boo. I hope I don't get hit again, or I might need a health pack.

I can't think of anything for a kukri change to interact with. (E.g., ubersaw buffs ubercharge, axetinguisher is based off the ignition mechanic.) Everything sniper is supposed to do is a bit out of kukri's range.

**ROCKS** · 08-01-2008, 07:20 PM

In the original TF you charged your sniper shot by holding down the button and it fired when released. it made for an awesome weapon. maybe trade charging for a easier headshot with this old school weapon.

**Yoshi MCF** · 08-01-2008, 08:18 PM

The sniper needs something that is more useful on offense. The next rifle should charge faster, allow you to move faster while zoomed in, and have a lower maximum charge.

The crossbow is a really cool idea. It fits the sniper much better than the smg, but it's much worse for finding cloaked spies.

I really hope that the next melee weapon is a boomerang. It would fit so well with the whole Australian thing, and it would make sense for the sniper to have a "melee" weapon with range.

Don't expect the sniper unlocks to come soon. It seems like they're going by which class is played the least. I'd expect soldier or scout after heavy, and maybe engineer or spy after that.

**Fish #641** · 08-01-2008, 11:12 PM

I expect it to go:
Medic
Pyro
Heavy
Sniper
Scout
Engi
Spy
Soldier
Demoman

It rotates each grouping, while keeping a good balance. Pyros counter Medics, Heavies counter Pyros, Snipers counter Heavies, etc.

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-03-2008, 07:54 PM

Magna, I honestly think your suggestion doesn't provide enough of a "alternative playstyle", where you would use one weapon over the other. The pyro primaries are pretty nice, one is for ambushing and flanking, the other one is for head on and support. Two very distinct weapons. What you are suggesting to me doesn't sound like it'll encourage snipers to change what they're doing much.

SMG is a cop-out. It was the nail-gun's re-model that was dumped in favor of the scattergun's cool-factor. That said, the weapon fits. The sniper by definition shouldn't be going to war, and his sidearm should be something light and annoying. (A sniper wouldn't be carrying an arsenel around) The best, fitting, replacement I can think of is to get away from weapon completely since he doesn't really need it, and instead give him a motion sensor. Placed on the ground, it would have about 8 metre range and would beep when an enemy entered the radius. (Trigger once then it is removed from play) Just enough time to get out of scope and pull kukri or to get out of Dodge.

I'll put it all from another perspective. Saying sniper is all about headshots is the same as saying spy is all about backstabs. Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but from my perspective, whenever a backstab goes bad, the revolver is an excellent fallback weapon. Whenever a headshot goes bad, the SMG doesn't cut it.

In reality I've just learned never to depend on the SMG, only to take it out whenever I think I have absolutely no choice and pray for criticals. Personally I'd like to have a secondary that actually appeared to be useful in some situations.

Really in the end, its not that big of a deal. You're probably right, its actually meant to be unreliable so I don't rush people with the smg.

**Shurikane** · 08-03-2008, 08:50 PM

Here goes something insanely experimental... You will hate me for this.

THE GOAL! Make the sniper more self-reliant in situations where he is not at his ease, or when in imminent danger of being attacked. The concept trades away raw firepower in favor of a means to evade danger.

The Aimfinder
A low-caliber sniper rifle with an autoaim feature - if you aim close to someone's head, the rifle corrects trajectory and scores a headshot. Tradeoff: You can't charge it, the effective range of the forehead finder is rather low - about the radius of one half-head, and the overall damage is slightly lower.
The idea: The Aimfinder is oriented towards a twitch short-ranged style that's suited to maps like 2fort and Badlands, where you don't have as much open space as you'd wish to. Good for softening up targets before you or someone else finishes them off.

Flashmine
Inspired from the demoman's sticky grenades. Places a special sticky mine that triggers a flashbang when an enemy walks near, temporarily blinding the enemy. Only one mine can be placed at a time. If a new one is placed, the older one disappears.
The idea: Can be thrown at one's feet as a quick escape measure when found. The loud bang can also alert the sniper of incoming enemies. You take out firepower in favor of an easier escape plan.

Golf Trophy
Blunt weapon that causes a long-lasting 'shock & blur' effect to a player when he's hit - much like being too close to an exploding nade in HL2. Deals less damage, however.
The idea: Once again, you trade raw power in favor of an easier retreat. Rather than a last-man-standing confrontation, you confuse your target in order to escape. A trophy hit followed by some shots from the SMG can also dispatch enemies at close range.

**MagnaCentipede** · 08-03-2008, 08:56 PM

I think isn't an alternative playstyle that you are interested in, but then again, very few people run the Krieg. And does Krieg change what medics do? Only a little bit. The unlocks shouldn't make every class have two faces; but give an extra option to players who have shown token dedication to a class. The alternate sniper rifle is specifically for campers who use 100% attacks and who are helping their team deal with medic-fueled chokepoints.

"Saying sniper is all about headshots is the same as saying spy is all about backstabs."
Spy is all about backstabs. Revolver is what it is because Valve knew they were dumping special effects like drugging/tranq, and thus Spy needed a weapon that would hurt a foe enough that they wouldn't want to stay in combat but not be powerful enough that spies would go to war with it like it were a magical +50HP device. Yes, revolver can bust some ass when everything goes just-right, but it, like sniper rifle, gives very little margin for error. As for fallback, sniper has Kukri, and medium-range combat is a major case of you're doing it wrong. Same goes for Spy who tries to use a sapper, or forgets to send $5 to Valve for 50 more stab registrations. Furthermore, when a bullet misses, you can take cover when you miss, before the target gets in your grill. For a spy, you've been plainly visible for three seconds and already have six crit rockets coming at you, plus a crit bonesaw, and an angry Sasha.

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-03-2008, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

I think isn't an alternative playstyle that you are interested in, but then again, very few people run the Krieg. And does Krieg change what medics do? Only a little bit. The unlocks shouldn't make every class have two faces; but give an extra option to players who have shown token dedication to a class. The alternate sniper rifle is specifically for campers who use 100% attacks and who are helping their team deal with medic-fueled chokepoints.

"Saying sniper is all about headshots is the same as saying spy is all about backstabs."
Spy is all about backstabs. Revolver is what it is because Valve knew they were dumping special effects like drugging/tranq, and thus Spy needed a weapon that would hurt a foe enough that they wouldn't want to stay in combat but not be powerful enough that spies would go to war with it like it were a magical +50HP device. Yes, revolver can bust some ass when everything goes just-right, but it, like sniper rifle, gives very little margin for error. As for fallback, sniper has Kukri, and medium-range combat is a major case of you're doing it wrong. Same goes for Spy who tries to use a sapper, or forgets to send $5 to Valve for 50 more stab registrations. Furthermore, when a bullet misses, you can take cover when you miss, before the target gets in your grill. For a spy, you've been plainly visible for three seconds and already have six crit rockets coming at you, plus a crit bonesaw, and an angry Sasha.

It just seems to me that so far valve has made the unlocks so that the classes main purpose can be played in a different fashion.

The snipers main weapon is the sniper rifle, so you can guess where the priority is going to go. Snipers are good at locking down areas and selectively taking out people from range. However when it comes to lets say covering my teammates while they assault the other base in most CTF maps, I don't even bother because I know I'll be useless. Something that would help me do that, would be nice.

You're right about the speed thing, we don't want it turning into CS kind of thing, but honestly I don't have many ideas, and what you suggested, no offense, sounds like something valve puts on a weapon because they really don't care about the bonuses, like the ubersaw or whatever, because they're not a main function of the class.

**Tarenth** · 08-09-2008, 01:49 AM

1) Side Arm
SMG is replaced with a 'Shrapnel gun'. Shrapnel gun operates like a scout's scatter gun except for several differences.

1) It only has 3 shots instead of 6
2) It does 75% less damage per pellet
3) Each hit applies a stacking -5% movement penalty per pellet to a maximum of -80% for 10 seconds (16 pellet or 2 full blasts are needed out of the 3 rounds)

This keeps the sniper's lack of close quarters combat ability, but allows the sniper to whip something out that can still keep people at bay long enough to get to better cover or distance to use the rifle.

2) Primary
Sniper rifle is changed to one that creates 'bleeders', but cannot get headshot crits anymore. Yes, no more headshots. All shots count as 'body shots' and do 20% more damage, however only 50% of that is applied at the shot and the rest trickles over 10 seconds. While 'bleeding' in this fashion all healing from medics or items are only 50% effective.

For the snipers who everyone despises and doesn't focus on headshots you now have a body shot crippling focused sniper. Not only will they prevent enemies for retreating and getting a quick fix from a med kit, but you can negate medic combos by reducing the healing rate of the medic's target and making them easier prey for your teammates.

If no one is using medics then you traded down to a rifle that kills more slowly and does less damage. However if healing items are abundent then you trade up from something that is skill based to twitch based. Yes, getting a hit is more twitch than the skill of getting headshot off the same target.

3) Melee
The kukri is replaced by a 'golf trophy'. Yes, I too stole the idea from the "Meet the Sniper" line pulled from The Matador where he talks about passion. Melee hits do 50% less damage and cannot crit, but each hit spins your target a random amount away from where they were facing. Heh...bludgeoning them to death while they try to target you or run away is fun. ^_^

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-09-2008, 02:06 AM

No, there has to be headshots. If they have more powerful bodyshots than that will encourage people who aren't very good at sniper to play sniper, in which in reality you should only have one sniper, maybe two on a team. Snipers aren't too good at grabbing intel and getting points, they can only support.

**Tarenth** · 08-10-2008, 05:55 AM

And yet they changed the Medic gun's uber from making people unkillable to making them killing machines. There doesn't 'have' to be anything in reality. You will either use the unlockable or you won't depending on your play style, skill level, and needs of the team.

Run the numbers of what I suggested BTW. Taking the revised rifle is trading faster kills with more lasting support power.

With the standard rifle you'll kill faster. Headshot are mostly instant kills and body shots will do full power. From the weapon damage post that means each body shot (fully charged) is 150 damage and each headshot is instant crit and almost always an autokill. Almost.

With the revised rifle you lose headshot kills (and as a consequent all crits) for much larger target area. You also will do 180 damage per shot, but only 90 of that is applied on hit and the other 90 is applied at a rate of 9 per second for 10 seconds. If you pulled off 2 body shots (fully charged) you'll do 90 with each shot and 9 each second between the charges. That's roughly 200 damage and whatever is left of the bleed over time which doesn't stack and only refreshes the bleed timer each shot just like the pyro's burn time.

If you did 2 fully charged body shots with the standard rifle you'd do roughly 300 damage and not apply any bleed. This isn't counting the stopping power of a headshot.

People who are good at snipers will STILL be good at snipers. People who aren't good at snipers just won't suck at it as much. They'll always be outsniped by good snipers using the standard rifle though because even with the increased target area a fully charged shot even to the head won't be enough to put them down until 6 seconds after the shot hits.

I'd think the "OMG! I'M A L33T SNIPER!" affect will still be in play when the achievements and unlockables go live (just like it did for medic and pyro), but people who are sucked in by that will quickly get disillusioned when they realize the 'better rifle' just means they contribute more to team play so their suckiness doesn't screw everyone over as much. Also...they won't get many kills unless their target does't run into anyone or get any heals in the next 10 seconds. You become, in short, like a pyro using a flare gun except with the healing penalty and more kick since its your primary.

Of course, the power of the flare gun is still debatable, but I find it nice and gimmicky even if it doesn't have the killing power of the shotgun.

Oh yeah. Standard rifle quick shots (no charge) are still 50 damage and crit on headshot (which can or cannot be a kill depending on life). Unlock rifle quick shots will do 60 damage with 30 applied at hit and 3 every second for 10 seconds. That means you can kill people a LOT easier if you're a snap shooter (like those videos or quick scope headshots) than you EVER will with the bleeding gun.

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-10-2008, 11:47 AM

I don't think you get my point. Sniper is still just a support class in an objective game. In most games you'll find one, maybe two snipers. Which is great, they help their team move up. If sniper became an easier class, more people would play sniper, thing is, snipers don't move up, they're not supposed to, because they're really fragile. So essentially theres going to be more stalemates and lost games with more snipers.

**cstealth** · 08-10-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Shurikane

Here goes something insanely experimental... You will hate me for this.

THE GOAL! Make the sniper more self-reliant in situations where he is not at his ease, or when in imminent danger of being attacked. The concept trades away raw firepower in favor of a means to evade danger.

The Aimfinder
A low-caliber sniper rifle with an autoaim feature - if you aim close to someone's head, the rifle corrects trajectory and scores a headshot. Tradeoff: You can't charge it, the effective range of the forehead finder is rather low - about the radius of one half-head, and the overall damage is slightly lower.
The idea: The Aimfinder is oriented towards a twitch short-ranged style that's suited to maps like 2fort and Badlands, where you don't have as much open space as you'd wish to. Good for softening up targets before you or someone else finishes them off.

Flashmine
Inspired from the demoman's sticky grenades. Places a special sticky mine that triggers a flashbang when an enemy walks near, temporarily blinding the enemy. Only one mine can be placed at a time. If a new one is placed, the older one disappears.
The idea: Can be thrown at one's feet as a quick escape measure when found. The loud bang can also alert the sniper of incoming enemies. You take out firepower in favor of an easier escape plan.

Golf Trophy
Blunt weapon that causes a long-lasting 'shock & blur' effect to a player when he's hit - much like being too close to an exploding nade in HL2. Deals less damage, however.
The idea: Once again, you trade raw power in favor of an easier retreat. Rather than a last-man-standing confrontation, you confuse your target in order to escape. A trophy hit followed by some shots from the SMG can also dispatch enemies at close range.

I dont think the flashmine would work
It would be meant as a form of escape but could be turned the other way around such as the blutsauger(sp?)
Also your talking away his primary means of defense when people are close
And auto aim would be.....interesting.
Its easier to just not use your scope
..for me anyway

**Headshot Yoshi** · 08-11-2008, 01:59 AM

In terms of your flashbang suggestion. Imagine there being like 10 snipers on a team. All they would have to do is spam choke points with flash grenades, that'd certainly be irritating.

There is already two noobspam classes where you just "fire and forget". They're called solider and demoman. Especially on dustbowl, that's where it's the worst. Let's not add sniper to that list.