What Is Schwa?

Like I said in another reply, a player can be having "fun" even if he is on the losing team.

New players should want to be part of this community because they find a place where players are working together and respecting each other. The losing team might be the team that is actually following the TG standards.

-Aaron

What Is Schwa?

I don't have a solution to players who claim to be TG and clearly act in a way that is not. It should be obvious to everyone here that an equal TG split is the best solution.

My post was mostly addressing where I see the discussion going: a policy/rule to "fix" the problem. If the very player base that is supposed to be the core of the community isn't in the spirit of things I don't know how we can proceed. A rule won't fix that issue.

I didn't realize that there was intentional TG stacking. That makes me sad.

-Aaron

AMosely

I'm certainly not the most skilled SM around here, but I actually enjoy playing against my fellow TG'ers, especially in a game like this.

When presented with the team selection screen at the start of a round, I always go in the lesser populated door. If everyone did that instead of looking to see who was on what side, I think things would work out much better.

Playing against your friends is sometimes just as rewarding as playing with them.

Beatnik

I don't think anyone's suggesting a policy or rule fix. I certainly wasn't.

And there isn't "intentional TG stacking". Sometimes teams are unbalanced. We're saying we're capable of policing (and correcting) it ourselves.

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What Is Schwa?

Hmn, I'm confused now.

So... TG players aren't stacking sides. They are, on average, equally distributed between teams?

I'm not trying to be dense, but if both teams are communicating, working together, and respecting each other, why does it matter if there is a discrepancy in wins/losses?

If one team isn't communicating, working together, and respecting each other, than that team is not doing what they are supposed to be doing on a TG server. In this case, fixing teamwork is a different problem entirely and cannot be solved by shuffling players.

-Aaron

WaffleHousChef

Exactly! At the end of it all, I just want a good fight with some teamwork. If the top 10 players currently on the server end up on the same team (you know if you personally qualify) it's not a good fight and it gets worse over time. These players can choose to correct the situation during map changes so that a more balanced proportion of them end up on both sides if they desire to do so and keep it in mind when picking teams. It just so happens that there is alot of overlap between long term SMs and base player skill/teamwork coordination skill.

What Is Schwa?

Hmn, I suppose I just have a different attitude when approaching the game. I don't expect the players who are better than me to accommodate my lack of skills.

I am a ranked chess player. I've found that if I play people who are better than me I get better. If I play people who are worse than me I don't improve.

I thought TG was about working as a team, communicating, respect, and so forth. I have the most fun when all the players on my team are doing that. Wins are just icing on the cake.

-Aaron

Mugzy

A better analogy then a chess game would be there is a football game, the teams will be picked from a group of 20 players. Team one ends up with 8 nfl players and 2 high school players. Team two has 8 high school players and two nfl. How would you like them odds?

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WaffleHousChef

Yeah, most likely. I want a fun experience I can work on my personal player skill, team coordination, explore the game system, and have a little fun with like minded people.

I expect that 9 times out of 10 a better skilled player then me will shoot me in the face, press the taunt key, and walk away to do it again shortly. This is not what I am talking about here at all. What I am talking about is when there is such an imbalance of teams that there isn't barely enough time to attempt coordination before your team is capped out we've short-circuited the point of playing. The sad reality here is that when this situation occurs, the ones that can rectify it in the short-term are the better players on the server.

In the long-term, obviously one should try to get better to avoid this kind of situation. However, the situation can become such that the skill levels of the two teams are so disparate that there isn't enough enough time or opportunity to practice at any level to get better (player skill, team coordination, tactical manuvering.) Add to this the player churn from frustration and the team in the hole will not even have a chance. And by not a chance, I don't mean not a chance to win, I mean a chance to participate and play the game.

13 routs a map has got to get pretty boring for the winning side too after the novelty wears off.

If you will note, at no point did I say that I don't want to play against good players. In fact, I am explicitly advocating spreading the good players around so that everyone can benefit from fighting with and against the good players across the board and creating a better play environment where battles will last longer enabling everyone to work on their skill and coordination.

Yes, this entire thread has been a request for those with the ability to consider spreading the skill around so that we create an environment that is extremely condusive to teamplay. I personally feel more balanced teams skill-wise would help that, and am requesting those players with obvious skill help to these ends.

People sometimes complain about Sudden Death over VOIP. To me, occasioanlly seeing Sudden Death is a good thing. It means that the match was hard fought enough that neither side was able to gain a distinct advantage over the other even though they were contesting their hardest during that round. It's kinda funny that the most Sudden Deaths I've seen was when the entire server was filled with SMs, with more waiting to join.

What Is Schwa?

Waffle> I'm sorry if I offended you. It sounds like we both want the same experience on the TG server.

I think we both can agree that mechanisms need to be in place that foster an environment where teamplay and co-operation flow easily from the players. My only objection is forcing that upon the players by some rule or automation. From what you have described it sounds as though trouble arises from players who clearly are not participating in the TG spirit. Hopefully when TF2 goes live the admin team can quickly remove those parasitic players.

At the same time, if everyone is playing fairly and participating with a TG mindset, I see no problem with one team dominating the other. So far, some of my favorite moments in TF2 have been the last desperate few minutes of a round where my team attempts to delay an impressive assault. The next round is a fresh start, and new strategies can be tried, and if all goes well my team could win. I feel it would cheapen the whole experience if in those situations the top players were forced to disperse.

-Aaron

Sirusblk

I just wanted to say I've played spy and capped CPs before. I don't mean to disagree with you, I whole heartily agree with you. I remember attacking on Gravel Pit, the team initially split everyone stacking on B. Forgive me for I forget who but a fellow TGer joined me as spy and we snuck into A.

A was covered with two engineers and a pyro. My cohort and I were disguised as a engineer and a sniper. I quickly sapped all the turrets and dispensers as soon as the pyro ran off to B, while my cohort took out the nearest Engineer. While the other Engineer shot at my friend I knifed him in the back. We then sat on the CP and captured it.

Two spys working in tandem can control a point very easily getting past enemy lines

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Zephyr

Simple issue: If teams look unbalanced (Which I would say is warranted by a +3 lead on any given map) switch over to the other side if you are able. It isn't exactly the most fun at first, but you begin to love to get the guilty pleasure of being the thorn in the side of those who were your teammates but a minute ago.

-Zephyr

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GinSoakedBoy

It's been a while since I've frequented TG, and I was playing ArmA last time I was here. TG isn't about winning or losing, its about playing in a co-ordinated way. Capping a point in the dying seconds is much more satisfying than winning in under a minute and a million times more fun than being on the receiving end of such a force.

With ArmA everyone who played on the server had to agree to a set of guidelines/rules to ensure the best gameplay experience possible. With something such as TF2, this isn't practical as without pubs you would have a half empty server most of the time. But the TG players should know how to play. Also, having TG tags on would be a good thing, as people can see the players and if they play in a co-ordinated way, it will reflect well on the community and they may join it themselves.

This also then makes it easier to even the teams, when a TG member joins, they can pick a side that will result in a even distribution of TG members. If only a half or even a third of a team is made up of TG members, it is more likely that the pubbers will be included in what's going on. They will then feel more inclined to listen, and perhaps enjoy themselves more.

Every class has it's use when deployed properly. Spies can take points, but a lot of public players tend to either be afraid to remove their disguises, or just not know that they need to, and will need informing. Two spies working together work REALLY when in taking down sentries etc.