WaffleHousChef

Let me preface this post by saying that it is absolutely not directed at any individuals or a subset of individuals. But should be read as something for all TGers playing TF2 and possibly to keep this in mind for everyone should a situation like this occur regardless of whom it happens to or with. This post is certainly not an attack on anyone, but is more along the lines of a cry for help. This post will most likely draw some discussion, please let's keep it on an even keel and directed at enhancing play within TF2.

Last night on the server was an extremely frustrating experience for me. I spent a good bit of time making my medic post, and was charged up and ready to hop on the server when I was able to. I was really looking forward to getting on and doing some righteous healing. I managed to get on the server first try, which was odd because the server has been pretty full recently during prime time needing an admin SM kick just to get on (if there wasn't a SM waiting list at the time.) Warning sirens should have gone off that something was amiss, but I just thought I got lucky. Little did I know what awaited me.

I loaded onto Granary, and the first thing that happened while I was choosing my initial kit was that my team was defeated and the score popped up and it was something like 0-5. With remotely even teams having some kind of back and forth byplay on the points over the past week 0-5 could be about where a map ends up if one side was on winning streak. So, I think that the map must be close to ending, and hopefully things will get mixed up soon. Again, my naivety rears it's ugly head.

I check the kit list, and while we have two medics. We have ZERO heavies, and all kinds of crazy kits. I give my usual "I really suck at heavy, but I'm playing it becuase no one else bothering to" speech. We have 3 spies AND 3 Engies. Literally over half the players on the team (over half because the team was never full due to frustrated disconnects) will never be able to take or contest a control point. Spies can't cap while disguised or cloaked and Engineers never move too far from their items. So, that left the rest of the team (who at this point were mostly churn and burn pubbies who didn't know what kind of meatgrinder they were sticking their heads into) to try and be offensive against literally an entire team of well-experienced, well-coordinated, TG SMs with a proper offensive kit mix.

The next rounds fit the following pattern. Try and coerce my team into picking some kind of semblance of a decent initial kit mix because once we loaded in we wouldn't get much of a chance to correct any issues. Then we would rush into the initial confrontation on the middle point that was already being capped by multiple scouts. To then watch my teammates fight around the cargo containers while steadily losing people but never actually stepping foot on the point no matter how many times yelling over VOIP "get on the point, don't fight around the point, get on it." I then suicidally try to actually get on the point by myself to get mowed down by the masses of offensive classes still standing there laughing at the gibs of my teammates while they fire rockets, nades, syringes, bullets, and disdain at me. The few offensive kits on our team are now sitting on the respawn screen leaving three engineers (and 3 really ineffective spys) to hold off the enemy hordes. One Engineer of which has set up initially on the back most flag already before any point was taken. So, the two Engies on/near the second point get rolled in a flash with no support, and the scouts rush the last flag while the second one is being capped. At this point our first respawn finally gets back on the field, but what do they do? rush straight forward in drips and drabs to be defeated in detail if the scouts hadn't already stolen the last point under their noses. No matter how many times I yelled again the old song and dance, "Get on the point, put bodies on the point, you must be on the point" no one was listening, they just wanted to do their thing and wander around the big open field by themselves and attempt to kill someone but mostly end up getting outgunned and gibbed in the process alone. Lo and behold, the lone medic makes a stand on the final flag against the entire other team. Total time to lose, < 1 minute. This exact thing happened another 8 times in a row. Making the end of the map 0-13 rounds with not a single control point being taken by the losing side the entire map cycle.

There are a few people (like nulloperations and AVS) who were valiantly trying to coerce some kind of teamwork out of our side, but the problem is that no matter how many times we said the most basic of things over and over no one was listening. It was so bad that some of our teammates spent more time typing "this is BS" into chat then fighting (yes, they were typing instead of talking in VOIP and all that implies.) So, by the time we spread the good word to a batch of teammates they would disconnect in frustration giving us new clueless teammates to attempt to impart a clue to.

With all the people jumping ship on the losing side adding player count disadvantage to the mix, every once in a while two would disconnect and kick the auto balance in. Great, clueful reinforcements. Fellow help in the cause of getting a team whipped into shape. This should help..... "PlayerX has said goodbye to this cruel world." Oh, no. I hit tab, crap! Another pubbie had joined the server on our side allowing the recently autobalanced SM to jump back on their original team to keep the steamroller running.

Finally, after 13 crushing, lightning-fast defeats the map changes. So, I'm relieved maybe we'll get a little shakeup after such an obvious imblance. Nope, everything goes exactly right back to where it was before, and I left after another straight 4 round losses without a single control point capped becuase you can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot.

We get it. You guys are the most coordinated, most accurate, kick ass, uber leet, curb stomping, badasses ever seen a TF2 server, that was demonstrated during the first 12 slaughters this map and on into the next one. But the game is absolutely no fisking fun if the sides aren't even remotely balanced from either side. 13 rounds on a single map where the opposing side doesn't take a single control point or manage to defend one solitary control point for longer then 15 seconds should be the great gold brick from the sky telling you that maybe it's time to evaulate the makeup of the sides and do something to correct the situation no matter who is on the team that is winning or losing. It takes the effort of the most skilled players currently playing to maintain the balance on the teams. I can't magically make myself or my teammates instantly better no matter how hard I try (and I have.) Doubly so when one side is losing so fast that we don't even have time to adjust any tactics. Triply so when one team is losing so hard that there is a constant influx of new players due to people constantly leaving the server in disgust so there is virtually no chance at coordination.

I'm not an admin, and I'm not trying to make anyone do anything. But, I am pleading, begging, and whining with those that find themselves on the top side of this kind of situation to self-regulate to bring the teams back into some semblance of balance for the sake of the weaker and lesser skilled players. Because, while I like TF2, if don't even have a remote chance to get into an interesting battle when I log onto the server I don't know how long I'll bother to keep trying to play. In my opinion if there aren't a few sudden deaths or a mixed score by the end of the map the teams are most likely imbalanced. And if a team can't even manage to contest a single control point during an entire map the teams are certainly unbalanced. I completely understand the drive to want to play with your friends, I certainly try to play with fellow 3rd members whenever I can and fellow SMs when I can't. So it's not that I don't sympathize, but at some point those teams that are utterly dominating should have the self-initiative to provide more balance at times or there most likely won't be much of a community to support the game left.

Zoopy

I don't get what "You can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot" means.

WaffleHousChef

No matter how hard a SM or two try to give a backbone to a mostly uncoordinated, mostly pub team in constant fluxuation they are going to get steamrollered by a team of TG SMs that are on the ball, excellent shots, and have coordination down to a science. The gap is too wide. Un-coordinated pub team is like a bucket of spit, add some buckshot (an SM or two) to it, and you've still just mainly got a bucket of spit. The saying is irrelevant, the content was the important part.

Zoopy

So waffle is upset about dodgeball? I thought everyone loved dogeball?

EDIT: I still don't get the meaning, why would you put buckshots in to a bucket, let alone a bucket of spit?

Beatnik

Good post, waffle. I wasn't there for the 13 game (!!) drubbing, but we should all proactively take steps to balance teams when we see runs like this.

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D0ubl3Hel1x

You obviously missed the point of the post if this is your main concern.

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What Is Schwa?

Waffle> I have had a very similar experience at the TG server, and most 24 pop servers.

I think it is very difficult to organize a team of 12 players. With so many, it allows the people who want to do their own thing an opportunity to so do. In your example, each of the three spies probably thought "well, there are two other spies, THEY should switch."

I hate to say this, but I might suggest you try one of the rare small pop TF2 servers. The dynamic between classes becomes quite visible and small adjustments make a large impact. With the lower number restraint on each team it forces REAL decisions that effect the game in very real and interesting ways.

When players can see how their class choice effects the overall team they tend to try to work together. That is my theory at least.

-Aaron

What Is Schwa?

I agree with the sentiment, but cannot think of any way to "balance" teams as a player or admin.

The only available tools would be to shuffle the players on each team during the round. However, this is a punishment for the team that is working together.

I don't think the solution to a team getting steamrolled is to punish the winning team that is doing what TG is all about.

-Aaron

Zoopy

it's hard for a player to switch, and most people only think about switching in the beginning of a round if they want to balance a team. Although that is the time both teams are full or even.

Not using that as an excuse or anything, just saying you can't do much as an average player unless maybe more then 2 people leave the loosing team.

D0ubl3Hel1x

I found TG after sqauding with Bommando one round in 2142. I trolled the boards for awhile wondering what it had to offer. Bommando made a movie of that round. In that movie he pointed out what he had in mind while leading and also pointed out why our successes as a squad were successes. The tactical breakdown of that movie sold me on a supporting membership. What kept me here was the "Learn TG squads" where members of IHS' would or TG veterans would show us the ways. The openess and introuduction to our style of play is what draws a lot of newcomers here and ultimately is what keeps them here.

From what I have gathered during my short time is TG isn't just about punishing and decisive victories but the open doors policy when it comes to new people. It's really hard to implement that concept when one side is dominating the people we are supposed to be inviting o,r for lack of a better word, enlightening. I don't think Waffle is looking for just a solution to balance teams here so one side isn't dominating the entire game but keep the teams balanced so the public doesn't run off into the woods never wanting to visit the site or the community.

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Beatnik

Agreed. I guess I should have been clearer in what I was suggesting. If there's an obnoxious run where a team gets pounded, a couple/few of the better members of the winning team should switch over to create better quality (read: closer) games on the server. So, it's up to the players, particularly the strongest players, to "balance" (skillwise, not "group"wise) the server. This worked very well in BF2 when there were blowouts.

And it never hurts yr ego to switch to the weaker team and be responsible for a victory.

Of course, on some maps the stars just don't align and there are 10 second caps by a scout or two. I think it's more realistic to recommend self-balancing between maps (when everyone selects teams again) than after say, two shutouts in a row on the same map.

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icky

It is amazingly hard to balance this game skill-wise as many of us know all too well. We're all so new to it that we manage to take a bunch of pretty good players and make a completely dysfunctional team much of the time. The same group of guys who might win 10 times in a row can find themselves absolutely floundering.

I think this will probably change, but we shall see.

A freezer would work wonders on that bucket of spit.

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Peace through fear... since 1947!

What Is Schwa?

You are right Beatnik, and as an individual player I will sometimes do what you described: switch teams.

However, I don't think there is a policy or rule solution to unbalanced teams. As long as the numbers are equal I think we have obliged the players with a "fair" setup.

With other TG games I've often found that winning/losing isn't related to the "fun" experience. I enjoy the bonds that form when attempting co-ordinated strategy. The only losses that bother me are the losses that happen when part of the team didn't work together.

By my own measure of "fun" I might really be enjoying myself on the losing end of a 13-0 shutout. I think that trying to tweak our rules/policy with the goal of balancing win/loss numbers could compromise the overall experience.

-Aaron

WaffleHousChef

I have played many, many fun and exciting rounds on the TG server. When the server is full of SMs, it's a thing of wonder. Teamwork everywhere, appropriate kit choices for both the team and map. The problem is when one team has 10+ SMs and one team has 2. The problem has recently been exacerbated by the fact there there has been a recent shift in everyone stripping their |TG| tags so that you can only tell the TG players from non-TG players by memory. Kind of like pubbie camoflage. Not saying that pubbies are bad, but that when you play with a TG person you know they are interested in working together as a team, and can count on a certain mindset to support that.

It isn't really that hard, if there are 12 SMs on the 24 player server, try and divide up the SMs 6 to a team. They can work together to lead their respective teams, and no particular team would be at a distinct disadvantage. The only way this will happen is if people choose to make this happen.

If you recall in my post, I mention that this situation continued through a map change. Every map change the teams are switched up and everyone gets to pick a new team. A golden opportunity for everyone to make sure the teams are more balanced. You see 5/6 people on one team are heavy hitting SMs (and you also fall into that category) perhaps joining the other team at map change would be advisable if they have less heavy hitters.

Every single player that qualifies as a heavy hitting SM is a smart person, and can evaulate the teams as they are being initially assigned as to strength and potential and see if they join one particular side that it might cause an imbalance. These abilities and judgement are the exact qualities that make them good in game. They have to have sufficient will to want to balance the teams of their own volition. This is easy if the desire for a good balanced fight is there. If that desire is not there it will never happen.

It takes some effort, yes. But it's amazing how easy it is for a player to get back on a team they've been autobalanced off of. It even happens instantaneously sometimes, so it can't be that difficult to do. If you get auto-balanced, perhaps it was for a reason.

Avs

In reguards to this post, I have to say I thought about making a mention of the stack that seems to frequently occur these days on the TF2 server. Granted its a beta, I am hoping for team selection to be removed (like the PCS server, though its like everyone on there is a regular so the downside is being able to manually balance for pubs) or more self-control when selecting a team to balance it out, or that by the time October arrives we have dedicated players improving their skill so that the entire player base can narrow the gap.

On that particular 13 loss day, I switched teams in hopes that maybe some others would as well. Honestly though, I knew I really couldn't change anything and that for others to switch to is completely up to them. I could tell right away how much skill each player on our team had, and its things like that which other players on the opposing team feel out over time, gain courage to exploit, and what we have there is steam rolling.

The only thing I'd like to see that has already been mentioned over and over is that this issue is addressed once the tools to do so are available and that rules and procedures are drafted one the game is officially out of beta.

One more thing, its not SM stacking/squad TG stacking, or whatever. Its pure skill stacking. I for one already know about how much skill most regulars have on our TF2 server, mainly because I have spent a lot of time on the server watching everyone else play. So I know whos who on each team, reguardless of tag, and how good they are with certain classes, and what classes they suck at. I also know who communicates well, and who plays as a team too. During that 13 round loss, in particular I noticed five people who usually always play together, stack one side. It just happens that these people all have preferred classes and are otherwise decent players. This difference in skill beats out any other kind of stacking. It really isnt whether they are friends or not, in the end its the good players tend to stick together thing, which is creating this problem. I don't really understand it either, as points/stats don't matter as much, especially when its no-contest. Its not the losing that is making anyone concerned. Its the matter that its not really the TG style to make teams unfair, and make people leave the server in frustration (the pubs). Due to incidents like this pubs have called TG all sorts of things (yes its name calling, but the point here is that its having a negative impact) and I don't want our server to have that kind of reputation.