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Discussion: Team Fortress 2 / Team Fortress 2 - Tactics & Map Discussion - Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well) - It is not a well known fact that all capture points are not created equal.
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    Sirusblk's Avatar

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    Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    It is not a well known fact that all capture points are not created equal. In practice all CPs should have a 1 to 1 relationship, however this is not true. There is a hierarchy, a hierarchy that everyone should know for better strategy.

    Nulloperations and I have met a couple of times on server 1, in hopes of seeding the server however we find ourselves having a go 1 on 1 most of the time, much in the way of playing rock, paper, scissors. Where am I going with this? Well we discovered something that you might not already know.

    CP_Well has five bases:
    -Your back base
    -Your forward base
    -Middle base (train station)
    -The Enemy's forward base
    -The Enemy's back base

    Now it's important to understand that these bases have a hierarchy. Think of it like this: (in order referenced from above)

    1
    2
    3
    2
    1

    3 takes the longest to capture where 1 takes the shortest. Meaning that capturing the train station is gonna take a lot longer than a forward base or a back base.

    Evidence, Nulloperations and I were playing one another, he was a scout and I was a spy. He captured the middle base and I backstabbed him, and captured the base in his absence. As he attempted to rush again as a scout I ran into him. Rather than fight I decided to cloak and push in an insane attempt to capture his forward base.

    Now it's important to note at this point that scouts capture bases twice as fast as any other class does. Adding to the fact that scouts are naturally faster, Nulloperations got on the middle CP before I even touched his forward base. Amazingly though, once I reach his forward base, with us both staying on the CP, I capture his base first by little more than a hair.

    I continued at his back base, getting there after he more than half way recaptured his forward base but still amazingly made the capture.

    In actual reality the base hierarchy is closer to as follows:

    1
    3
    7
    3
    1

    Thank you Valve for allowing me to piss off Nulloperations more than he'd like.

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  3. #2

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    This is true on all the 5 point push maps. It puts more important on defense, while lessening the ability to turtle. Also the defenders have the advantage of spawning closer. It also emphasizes a strong team attack on the middle.

    Although a Scout on the last point usually means victory if there is no defense set up.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Not being a smartass so don't take it that way, but this stuff is covered in the commentary for cp_well

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Smartass.


    It's all in the Reflexes.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Ya, I noticed this on cp_granary as well. Another 5 point control map, like mentioned above. If you are pushing, you can usually get that last control point over by just sacrificing people to run onto the CP. A few seconds each is all it takes.
    The Dirty

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Knowing this is map dependent is a good thing. I'm not a big fan of the almost instant last cap on these maps, because it makes things easier for the OF as things go along. I'm more a fan of offense getting harder as you advance.

    In the future, we can find maps that follow this line of reasoning so we can satisfy both ideas.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFeniX View Post
    Knowing this is map dependent is a good thing. I'm not a big fan of the almost instant last cap on these maps, because it makes things easier for the OF as things go along. I'm more a fan of offense getting harder as you advance.

    In the future, we can find maps that follow this line of reasoning so we can satisfy both ideas.
    It's actually balanced in the sense that the farther you get into enemy territory the closer you are fighting to their spawn. So, on the last point, you wouldn't want a long cap time because the enemy team is spawning mere meters away.

    If cap times were left unchanged, it would become very difficult to actually win these maps and you'd get a lot more stalemates.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Quote Originally Posted by BHack View Post
    It's actually balanced in the sense that the farther you get into enemy territory the closer you are fighting to their spawn. So, on the last point, you wouldn't want a long cap time because the enemy team is spawning mere meters away.
    I just don't see how bad it could get. People have gotten by fine dragging a mobile "Hey, shoot me now!" bullseye called a flag into an enemy base for a cap. Why couldn't they rely on a dedicated push to get that last cap rather than just needing to get one lucky player on the cap and push a defender off it?

    If cap times were left unchanged, it would become very difficult to actually win these maps and you'd get a lot more stalemates.
    I wouldn't say "very" because that depends on the team. But it would become more difficult for the attackers, thus forcing more teamwork and a more satisfying victory (at least for me). So, why not test maps that use this philosophy? It's not like it could hurt.

    If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I think we've got more than enough talent at TG to make a map like this work and be very entertaining.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    The structure how it is also requires teams to form defenses. Which, of course, is a Good Thing.

    Not to say that's the only way it can or should be...
    Beatnik

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
    The structure how it is also requires teams to form defenses. Which, of course, is a Good Thing.

    Not to say that's the only way it can or should be...
    Any lack-luster DF is going to be overrun by a co-ordinated team no matter what style of cap points you have.

    The problem I see is that the team with the most caps (essentially now the attacker) or the attackers on dustbowl are afforded the ability to make numerous mistakes and still pull things together and take a win. From what I've seen, defenders are afforded the ability to make fewer mistakes. In fact, I've seen one mistake by letting a scout get by or not having everything set up perfect lose them the round. And that's fine when we reach a level of skill and teamwork that gives us a better baseline, but right now I see things slighted heavily in favor of a team that just throws wave after wave of bodies at DF and are above the DF team in skill in any capacity.

    I could be wrong. The past few days have been spent primarily on the back-end hammering out server issues rather than actually gaming. But from what I've been told, the teamwork aspect applies heavily to the DF, while not so much to the attackers.

    I'm sure the issue might work itself out as player skill progresses, but I'd like to have a variety of maps that give us a change.

    Heck, I'm a huge fan of "The Hunted" map from TFC (basically, a VIP map). It's slighted heavily in favor of the snipers and requires copious amounts of teamwork for the bodyguards and VIP. But, it's nice to have the option of maps that even out the advantage.

    I'm not saying all maps should have this style of gameplay, but it''d be a nice change of pace. And as I said, if a modified version of the cap points leads to more stalemates and even a skilled team can't make a cap, then we can test it and find out.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    I think the issue with the "back points" is how the game leaves points "half-capped" for a period of time even with nobody on the point. Add that to the scouts X2 cap rate and it's actually quite easy to take that last CP. The last point should be immediately reset to requiring the full cap time once it is defended and scouts should only count as X1 instead of x2 on that last point.

    A lot of times the issue is once the opposing teams assaults your #2 point, they only need to have a scout slide around and sit on the #1 point for a quick victory. You really don't get a lot of time to set up any defenses back there, and the game is quite fluid and often you can go from assaulting point #3 to having the game tell you that you are a looser inside of 10 seconds.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    It's set up the way it is because if you listen to the commentary, the initial design was such that all progress towards capping a point vanished immediately after the people capping it were cleared off the point. They scrapped that idea and made it to a gradual decline in the cap progress because there were massive amounts of stalemates being that the enemy spawn is so close to it. The capture point maps are designed like a spring: the further you get into enemy territory, the harder it gets to push deeper.

    Seriously though, load up the game, click on the commentary button, and go through them all. You will get some very nice information and a deeper understanding about why things are designed the way they are.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    I'm left to wonder if there's a set of variables we could change that would impact how long each CP takes to capture, if not now then in the final release. It's a little too impressive that the middle base will still take longer to cap than any of the other back bases, even with two people on the point.

    I know that the commentary says that there's more of an emphasis on the middle base, but not everyone listens to the commentary and I don't think anyone knew to what extent.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirusblk View Post
    I'm left to wonder if there's a set of variables we could change that would impact how long each CP takes to capture, if not now then in the final release. It's a little too impressive that the middle base will still take longer to cap than any of the other back bases, even with two people on the point.
    From what I've been told, it's set by the map, not the server config.

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    Re: Not all Capture Points are created equal (CP_Well)

    Quote Originally Posted by Relmar View Post
    It's set up the way it is because if you listen to the commentary, the initial design was such that all progress towards capping a point vanished immediately after the people capping it were cleared off the point. They scrapped that idea and made it to a gradual decline in the cap progress because there were massive amounts of stalemates being that the enemy spawn is so close to it. The capture point maps are designed like a spring: the further you get into enemy territory, the harder it gets to push deeper.

    Seriously though, load up the game, click on the commentary button, and go through them all. You will get some very nice information and a deeper understanding about why things are designed the way they are.
    I did check out the commentary, but that doesn't mean I agree with Valve after seeing how it plays out now that more testing has been done. Taking and holding the enemies #2 point through 2 spawn cycles almost guarantee's a victory in the current state of affairs. The main enemy of the fast-moving scout is a T3 sentry gun, and both teams #1 point are horrible for sentry guns to be worth a damn with 4 entrances/exits into the CP room.

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