Yay! Hunters - Page 2

ScratchMonkey · 12-22-2007, 09:21 PM

Alas, the Dead Zone has just been cancelled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dead_Zone_(TV_series)

**Tarenth** · 12-23-2007, 08:32 AM

LOL! Now that is both ironically topical and still amusing. Cheers Scratch.

Q for PvE raiding, BG PvP, and Arena PvP there are completely different strategies and tactics to playing.

Example: BM hunters with the highest mana effiency eventually out DPS MM hunters in PvE due to their fast shots and Steady shot spam. BM hunters also do well in low ranked Arena matches because people don't want to deal with pet and would rather cry about them instead of planning ways to negate BW. In higher ranked matches you would want to switch to a MM Arcane Shot build because your pet will die faster than you can say 'nerf warlocks and warriors' thereby negating 70% of your BM DPS. LoS issues and constant movement also destroy the Steady/Auto rotation BM hunter rely on and the faster arcane and multi work well with MM hunters.

All in all, Hunters were nerfed horrendously in PvE with the removal of the mana effiency bandaid that was Feign Death/Drink, but we were improved in Arena combat to the point where we're no longer a joke. Consequently our abilities in BGs have improved from their already strong standing giving people delusions that we're overpowered. Then you have bandwagon jumper making a lot of noise over what they don't understand.

shirokuma · 12-23-2007, 07:27 PM

I had this argument many times with gaze, gaviin and so forth.. Hunters are not over powered! not in the least I feel. I have played other classes and those that say hunters are over powered need to look at themselves..

Palli's lets see what they have.. a bubble that allows them to heal themselves to almost full (can't be dispelled by hunters) I am not saying they can't be beat and not saying they can't beat a hunter because I have been killed by them many times and I have also killed them too. A pally against a BM.. when they see a red pet.. bubble wait 12 seconds and then red pet go bye bye.. OR just heal past the dmg with flash heals.

Mages, fire mages can't say I have fought to many of them in arena's for the most part it is ice.. and lets see what mages have.. Pet that does 700 ice bolt per shot. yes we can take them out, but then again you can take our pets out. As well the ice block/ice tomb.. you see big pet.. well ice block and wait for red pet to go bye bye then unblock and blast the hell out of the hunter.

Warriors.. massive hit points and alot of the times intercept, hamstring and just keep up pounding on the hunter.

Druids, depending on what you are fighting.. lets see... cyclone.. hmm chain cyclone the hunter, change shapes, heal, etc.. Yes druids are somewhat easy but if you ever go against a boon kin.. MAN HARD as crap!!

I am not saying that hunters own all classes and all classes own hunters.. but don't go off on hunters when your class has alot of utilities that you can use against the hunters.

Shiro

Arkamis · 12-23-2007, 10:53 PM

rofl

FD Drink did nothing for mana efficiency. Mana efficiency is measured in Damage per Mana. FD drink is about the biggest thing you can do to nerf your damage. If done right, most fights out there would not require an FD-drink. The only time is kind of sucks is on long fights with phase transitions, like Vashj and Kael. But other than that, there is no fight that I can think of that SHOULD last so long that Fel Mana Potions and proper use of AotV would not give you sufficient mana.

**Tarenth** · 12-24-2007, 03:22 AM

I actually found boomkin to be easy to kill since what's good for the goose is good for the gander. They have the option of moonfire spam (lol) or they can use long cast time spells to do damage. Just LoS them and you're negating all their damage unless they entangle you (stupid casters). You can also put one rogue or warrior on them and a kick/pummel will lock out all their nature spells which inclues everything of importance.

FD/Drink was a bandaid to mana efficiency because at some fights there are a few seconds where you can safely FD/Drink and gain back a lot of mana quickly.

Examples:
Lurker - Right before submerge ends when the raid is dealing with the last melee mob. 99% of the time that mob is out of range of hunters stationed on the islands so we can FD/Drink and get mana back at 800 mana/second
Hydross - Right before transition when you want all damage to stop hunters can FD/Drink and get mana back while transition is made and AoE aggro is established
Gruul - When we wait for ground slam (we stop DPS 5-10 seconds early to get positions) you can FD/Drink at your postion if you have a stationary one and get mana back while frozen as if you were drinking.
Mags - When waiting for your turn to click the cube (again, we prep a 10 seconds ahead of time) you can FD/Drink on your cube and click while drinking to stand up.

It was a way to get a lot of mana back quickly which made mana efficiency less important and let you DPS freely then get the mana back quickly. As it stands now I'm dropping [item]Crystal Mana Potion[/item] every 2 minutes, getting a Shadow priest's Vamp Touch, Paladin Judgement of Wisdom, a [item]Drums of Restoration[/item] every 2 minutes, and Aspect of the Viper and I'm STILL running out of mana on long fights. These are all small mana gains and when I'm using the Drums of Restoration I'm not using Drums of Battle, if I'm using AotV then I'm not using AotH, and if I have to chose between a Shadow Priest caster mana synergy and a Feral Druid's physical DPS synergy and the DPS synergy loses there is a problem especially since that means I'm giving Trueshot Aura to casters who love the 125 Attack power.

You also can't forget that AotV gives me (and I have one of highest intel stats in the guild for hunters) 141 mana/5 when I'm at 10% mana or less then suffers diminishing returns as my mana pool fills up. That means the new 55% AotV will only work when I'm at 933 mana or less fully raid buffed. Oh joy oh rapture...that's what? 4 spells? If you think having no mana to spam shots isn't more of a hit towards DPS than stopping to drink for 15 seconds or slowing down DPS in order to have mana then you need to run the numbers.

I could probably etch out higher DPS if I went BM since its more mana efficient and changed my spec and gear from the current MM RAP to BM RAP (much different since you have to use less agility and intel for more enhance gear of AP/Crit rating), but I don't want to. It would be like saying Ark could probably heal better if you changed your tanking gear to healing gear and changed your talents around. You tank because you want to tank and I like doing OMGWTF damage in bursts with MM RAP.

Clipp · 12-24-2007, 04:18 AM

Meh...

I could care less really, but I've always believed that Hunters and Warlocks are the top tiered PVP'rs...and that they have the most counters against everyone, and adding more counters to the Hunter class was really annoying.

But, I have to hear people whining that they are severely underpowered in Arenas; well, get over it...deal with it...shoot, Tarenth, you said it yourself. You sit behind your little Warrior and Rogue grunts and snipe ppl after your little flunkies die first (and we always do), you run around in circles and laugh at the classes who don't have a counter for your abilities.

Although, BM hunters are OP compared to MM hunters pvp wise. Some of your counters that you guys listed (sans pally bubble) are counterable by BM hunters. Warrior intercept (intimidation) done...nottin you can do except watch your health plummet to nothing, so the 2 classes who should NOT be complaining at all about PVP right now are Hunters and Warlocks, because they by FAR have the most counters to every other class...

**Tarenth** · 12-24-2007, 04:35 AM

Intimidation is 3 seconds and requires the pet be in melee. If the warrior is in melee with you and your pet is in melee with the warrior you are having problems far beyond the intercept. Also, intercept stuns for a short period so that means you will be hamstringed by the time you leave the stun which is when you can use intimidation (ignoring the running back to intimidate time period). If you ice trap, the warrior can taunt the pet and break the trap. If you frost trap or wingclip, you both hobble around at a slow speed with the warrior having the longer snare. If you get away the warrior can intercept again in 30 seconds (if you have your pet on the warrior to intimidate then the pet is also doing its 40 damage every 2.3 seconds assuming cobra talents with BM giving the warrior rage) and your intimidate will be on cooldown.

That would be battlegrounds Clip. Arenas are a completely different kettle of fish and the rewards and strategies used in both are completely different. BM is also weaker than MM in higher tier Arenas because the pet can easily be one-two shotted due to low hp and no resiliance. A warlock can dot a pet and kill it insanely fast or you could have a warrior taunt it and melee it to death. You can't stand behind anyone in Arenas or run anywhere to kite because of how small the arenas are.

So...what are the hunter counters to rogue poisons and stuns? Warrior intercept/hamstring? How about ANY melee class? Warlock DoTs? Seriously...I'd LOVE to hear those counters. Go ahead and cheat, I don't mind. You can list TALENTS as counters to stock abilities, but only talents avalible together. No listing Wyveryn sting, Intimidation, and Scattershot on one build or BW and Silencing shot either. Pull from an acceptable build and use those skills as counters.

Clipp · 12-24-2007, 02:41 PM

As usual you missed my point.

Everyone else has to deal with their shortcomings and problems, so Hunters shouldn't be immune to this. Feel free to whine about it if you will, but as I said, hunters/locks are the most powerful open-air PVP types, now if that means you absolutely suck in arenas, so be it.

Counters for rogue poisons, I couldn't tell you...most of the time, my butt is frozen in some stupid trap or I'm being dazed by a pet, so I don't know if those count as counters, but I consider them to be. Oh, stuns, I believe there is a trinket that removes stun effects, and another thing is FD that removes people that are targeting you...then it's kinda like my vanish.

Okay..melee classes...all 3 of them, we already covered Rogues, so let's cover warriors. Well, I'll admit it, I don't know much about warriors...but im guessing that if they intercept into an ice trap (soon you'll be able to lay 2 at once) that would freeze them in place would it not. If I'm wrong, feel free to jump all over it, i could care less. Enhancement shaman? Pffft...I doubt they ever get close enough to give you any trouble...and if they do...it's not like they can do much to counter your counters...Ret pallies, don't know enough about them and won't pretend to...but I'm going to guess that you can counter them in some way, I wouldn't be surprised.

By the way, talents do count as counters...obviously, a BM hunter has different counters than a MM hunter. Just because not everyone has said counter, doesn't mean that it doesn't count. I'm a sub rogue...I can vanish and sprint twice..that counts as a counter...I can shadowstep behind that damn mage that keeps blinking away from me. Just because Ricca or Gaviin can't do it, doesn't mean it isn't a counter (apology to them if they can, I don't feel like looking up spec's right now : ) last i checked, they were both combat [Ricca for sure, I haven't grouped with Gav enough to know])

But, to reiterate my point, quit complaining and find new strategies, instead of whining about how people would want the "dead zone" back, because it somewhat evened out the playing field.

Clipp · 12-24-2007, 03:52 PM

Heh, Goll...I just wait till your at 25% or less health...shadowstep ambush, laugh : P and if you don't die, then I better cloak real damn fast or else im done for

Arkamis · 12-24-2007, 03:55 PM

Hunters should not be FD drinking on Hydross transitions. They need to be in there Misdirecting on the tank. At most, you're looking at stopping damage for 5 seconds. On Gruul, if you FD drink you ARE losing DPS time, no two ways about it. On Magtheridon, I could see after killing the adds when getting into position, but that's also right around a quake timer.

Anything else shouldn't last long enough to necessitate FD-Drink. If it is, then it's because your raid DPS isn't high enough. And if your raid DPS isn't high enough, then it's probably a result of too many people saying, "I *could* spec for higher DPS but I like this better."

**Quarath** · 12-24-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkamis

Hunters should not be FD drinking on Hydross transitions. They need to be in there Misdirecting on the tank. At most, you're looking at stopping damage for 5 seconds. On Gruul, if you FD drink you ARE losing DPS time, no two ways about it. On Magtheridon, I could see after killing the adds when getting into position, but that's also right around a quake timer.

Anything else shouldn't last long enough to necessitate FD-Drink. If it is, then it's because your raid DPS isn't high enough. And if your raid DPS isn't high enough, then it's probably a result of too many people saying, "I *could* spec for higher DPS but I like this better."

But since as a guild we have NEVER to my knowledge forced spec on anyone what difference does that make. If your OOM your DPS is nil and maybe better mana management can be achieved but at that point if your out your out and if the only way to get it back is to FD and drink then that's what you use. That's why he called it a bandaid. Obviously it would be best to pop a pot or something than FD drink but if that's what is left to get back in the battle you make it work. Now my opinion is probably not worth a whole lot in this forum as I have never participated in any of the proposed fights. To me what Tarenth is saying just makes sense.

Arkamis · 12-25-2007, 11:09 PM

The difference it makes is that it was not, as Tarenth suggested, a horrendous nerf to PvE capabilities of hunters. It was a nerf to TG's hunters.

ScratchMonkey · 12-26-2007, 06:51 AM

Newbie hunter asks for advice on agw:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.g...e427142ac3d6c8

**Tarenth** · 12-26-2007, 08:28 PM

Actually, if you look at it from the dimensions of the whole it was a horrendous nerf to all PvE hunters.

A MM hunter at the BCT1 raiding level can easily pull out 700-900 DPS while a BM hunter at the same level can only do around 500-650 simply because of gear constraints.

At the BCT2 raiding level that increases to 800-1000 DPS for MM and 600-700 for BM. However the difference is that at the BCT2 level the fights get a bit longers than you find in Karazhan, Gruul, and Mags so MM hunters run out of mana faster than BM hunters and lose about 200 DPS due to mana and raid buffs because we have to act like casters. That evens BM hunters and MM hunters because of the mana efficency problem.

At BCT3 the DPS jumps again to 900-1100 DPS for MM and 700-800 DPS for BM hunters however the fights are longer and mana is faster to run out for MM hunters. Since the fights are longer the MM hunters go longer without mana and they lose even more DPS (aproximate 300-400 DPS) which drops them below BM hunters. This isn't counting the synergy lost from having to be in a mana group instead of a damage group and getting useless spell damage while giving useless AP.

If mana constraints force hunters to give up buffs and synergy that increase the overall DPS of the hunter then mana constraints are forcing down hunter DPS. Switching from MM to BM is an automatic loss since MM is vastly superior to BM in damage dealing capacity. You get to work on more RAP and crit while having some synergy with damage dealing groups and your TSA buff and your pet with high RAP and TSA. BM is a heavy trade off where if you have a strong pet you have a weak hunter (focus is on RAP and not Crits which do not translate to the pet or haste which disrupts steady shot rotation) and if you try to buff your hunter you lose power from your pet. There is also the problem where if your pet dies (and it will since healers will rarely heal them) you will lose 60-70% of the BM hunter's DPS and when they are revived the happiness will force a 25% loss of your pet DPS.

That happiness penalty was made permanent to BM hunters with the loss of FD/Drink because you can also no longer escape combat to feed your pet. Then you have worse conditions for mana forcing down MM hunter DPS sooner causing an overall loss in DPS which they can either cope with by taking the permanent DPS loss by switching to BM or take a raid synergy DPS loss by switching to a caster group and mana gear. Then you have the hunter being forced to use an aspect and items that won't help DPS, but prop up mana in a futile attempt to continue to DPS.

Now compare these problems with hunters to the other DPS classes. Warriors, Feral Druids, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans all share synergy with each other and do not suffer the problems of hunters and their mana efficiency. Shamans may have mana, but they can use shamanistic rage to get it back up and they provide vastly superior buffs to everyone with windfury or grace of air totems and strength of air totems. They also increase all MAP by 10% when they get a melee crit and can disrupt with earthshock if a rogue can't kick or a warrior can't pummel/shield bash.

That begs the questions then. Should you take a hunter on a raid or opt for another caster DPS for the caster slot they are taking in order to prop up mana or one of the other nonmana DPS classes who provide synergy to each other. If you have to make excuses to take a hunter because they are disadvantaged againsts other classes then that is a PvE nerf.

Arkamis · 12-26-2007, 08:56 PM

Higher end fights are far shorter than the entry level raid encounters. Gorefiend is a 4 minute engagement. Bloodboil is on the long end, at 8 minutes. Most Gruul kills are around the 8 minute mark.

Illidari Council is a little lengthy. Actually, it's viciously long. But everything else is shorter than most encounters in SSC/TK and before.

So yeah, mana isn't really an issue for those hunters.