Arkamis

As far as numbers goes, I'm really not sure where you're getting your information.

http://wowwebstats.com/3bf4me3fqdj25?s=1481-1696

Here's a WWS from an Alpha Rage Winterchill kill last month. Rage is usually a fairly stand still tank and spank fight, but he generally punishes melee because any Death and Decay cast in melee range negates their ability to do damage.

Chased, our BM hunter, is standing strong at 1618 DPS. Grelif, our SV hunter caps out around 1000, which is to be expected. However, his raid synergy more than makes up for the lost DPS.

Here's Archimonde, where everyone is universally punished for DPS time. http://wowwebstats.com/3bf4me3fqdj25?s=8137-8484

Note that both BM hunters post higher DPS numbers than the rogues. This is in part due to a lack of a SV hunter in the raid, but more prominently the total damage is lower because ranged has a slightly harder time on that fight than melee.

In neither of these scenarios was an FD-Drink necessary at all, and the hunters were quite obviously maintaining respectable DPS numbers. So really, it's not a nerf if you're raid's doing things right.

edited for clarification

aesop rock

LOL - hunters were already OP before this buff, not to mention those nice little mortal strike and buff removal shots they have now. they're still the most played twink/bg class. gg bandwagon, indeed.

I'm shocked by the arrogance and falsehood of this statement.

__________________
"Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

"Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature.

aesop rock

I'm with you on this, bud. Hunters have a counter to everything I can think of. I actually happen to have a warrior and a warlock as my two toons, so I can lend some insight on that.

Warlock: I'm not gonna lie, if I can get the jump on a hunter, and abuse LoS, I'm in good shape, but the counter a hunter has on a lock is simply burst damage + pet stun. A good hunter will generally hit me with a viper trap at some point, which forces me to use nothing but dots or the single deathcoil for about 900 or so (since the spell pushback makes casting impossible). Instant dots cant hope to match the burst damage plus pet stun plus disorient, so at that point it's not lookin so good for a lock.

Warrior: It can be situational, but the way I see it, a hunter has a great chance against a warrior. Ice trap or frost trap, wing clip, scatter shot, intimidation, hell I dunno all the crap they do but they have a ton of ways to get away while doing an absurd amount of damage. Kite-shooting needs to be nerfed. Lower the accuracy substantially, I say.

I honestly can't imagine how frusterating a hunter must be for a rogue, though.

__________________
"Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

"Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature.

Tarenth

1) Neither of those situations involve the deadzone which contradicts your statement that the deadzone is not used by balance druids with entangle and mages with frost nova only and my statement saying such is arrogance and wrong. Though I suppose you could make a case for Curse of Exaustion and chasing the hunter so that they are in the deadzone while you DoT, but then I'd make a case of wing clip jousting and running to range. Neither of which would be use of a warlock's fears which is what they do rather well in PvP...Dot and Fear.

2) Pet stun is a BM talent. It can also be countered with killing the pet which is ridiculously easy for a warlock to just set up dots and forget about them. I think my pet has 6k health, 7.5k with raid buffs. Then again, I don't have an arena team so I've been letting my stam set slide a bit. I think Mav's pet (survival hunter) once had 9k fully buffed.

3) Viper trap is on a 30 second cooldown and lasts for 1 minute until triggered which releases 4 vipers and 4 poisonous snakes for 15 seconds. Each snake has, at max, 10 hp and the vipers do 10-20 damage while the snakes do 1-10 damage and can poison. 1 tick of Hellfire, 1 tick of Rain of Fire, or (if you're feeling silly) Shadowfury will nuke all the snakes. Locks counter viper traps with 1 tick of hellfire 1 to kill all the snakes quickly with quite a bit of overkill since it does around 80 damage without spell damage. Of course, the fact that you're close enough to get trapped is a problem in itself. Warlocks and hunters have similar range, but warlocks have no snare mechanics like mages or hunters so closing to melee has short term benefits unless you're just trying to screw with them. Most warlocks I've faced on the battlegrounds and in arena matches of the past will close only close enough to cast fear and then DoT/Burst me down. Sometimes they play nice and kill me with DoTs and ignore my pet. Sometimes they aren't so nice and kill my pet while I'm under fear then kill me afterwards. Sometimes they're just plain evil and DoT my pet up before killing me so that when I rez the pet dies from the DoTs. Bastards.

You're also ignoring the warlock's pet. Now if they have a felhunter then what you said is only correct if you played to give the hunter every possible advantage and ignored your own superior counters. Imps as well. A Succubus will seduce the hunter and give you extra crowd control so that you can space your fears and not hit the diminishing returns as quickly. In one on one matches the succubus is a popular pet since it will always have first strike because of invisibility unless another warlock has used detect invis or you walk it into a flare on purpose. Voidwalkers can be sacrificed for a damage shield or can just taunt the pet/snakes off you and tank the damage. Pets are considered NPCs so while they follow orders they also have an aggro chart and threat meter that can be affected by taunts and aggro reduction tools. Felguards...let us not speak about pocket warriors with heavy damaging attacks, the ability to stun with intercept, high armor and high hp. Personally I set my pet on the warlock's pet and turn growl on so that a pet v pet battle takes place. I also focus on the pet while its being tanked or else my pet will get chewed up and spit out covered in demonic spit. an inattentive warlock will ignore their pet and I can keep it off me long enough to kill it though with a felguard its even odds if I kill it before it kills my pet and me first. A few growls and a disengage or feign death usually gets a pet off me until they reset the target.

4) Ice trap is broken on damage and a popular way to break it with experienced warriors is to taunt the pet so that it attacks you. Of course, you could always let the hunter get away and intercept them afterwards. Funny how both Ice trap and Intercept have a 30 second cooldown so it works out well that way depending on who comes to who. Most warriors I've seen now either use charge and stance shift when closing to melee or run in on a circular path instead of intercept so they can always intercept after a trap negating the trap. Frost trap and wing clip are nonissues since you should have hamstring up on the hunter (its the first thing you spam to keep people in melee). Frost trap is that area only and if you're both slowed you'll exit the trap area just in melee range of the hunter when they exit the trap area. Wingclip (aside from being blocked, parried, and dodged by a PvP warrior an obnoxious number of times) lasts shorter than hamstring which means you have to reenter melee range in order to reapply it and get out again while still under hamstring hoping they don't reapply hamstring (and they will have the rage again if they're constantly hammering you from behind). Of course, they could always let you get away so they can drop out of combat, stance shift to battle, then charge you again to close and reapply hamstring with the rage that generates. It really depends on how the warrior lets things fall since once they enter melee and get hamstring up they can let it play out how they choose unless someone intervenes or chain stuns are pulled off (and no, we don't have chain stuns unless Imp Concussion procs).

Scattershot and Intimidation...well...you'll NEVER see scattershot and intimidation on the same hunter unless its in passing as you run right over them. To get both talents means you have to go 40/21 or 21/40 and that means passing on Beast Within or Silencing shot which a PvP hunter will find crucial. As for an absurd amount of damage? I've crit a warrior for 800 damage with aimed shot. Lets say that again. Aimed Shot Crit against plate for 800 damage. You have plate armor and should be wearing it. Now if you've switched in some Enhancement shaman mail or Rogue leather for extra DPS that's your problem and you should've rolled an enhancement shaman or rogue instead.

Kite-shooting? Kite shooting depends on instant cast shots because keeping max range on someone while running away isn't possible if you are standing in place winding up a shot. That means Arcane shot, Serpent Sting, and the occasional Multishot if you time it right. You will also get autoshots on the occasion if you can time your movements, but if you run past your shot timer it has a tendency to cancel autoshot and start the windup again. That means with a 3 second ranged weapon and a 15% quiver we can move for 2.55 seconds before we have to stop or lose autoshot. Then again, that's more like 2.2 due to lag and the draw/fire animation timing. Run stop run stop run stop...that's kiting. That also means no aimed shots (3 second cast) and no steady shots (1.5 second cast) because they defeat the purpose of kiting. If you were to equate kite killing damage to a warrior it would be if you tried to kill someone with autoattack and rend only with the occasional heroic strike. Then again, that's questionable since I've been crit with a warrior's normal attack for 1500, heroic crit for 2000+ and I've seen autoshot crits of maybe 600-700. Stupid plate v mail and stupid MAP mechanics with properly scaled weapons.

BTW, here's a tip if you're being kited by a hunter. Stop. Run in the other direction. If you're being kited by a hunter that means they're about 31-42 yards from you and out of charge/intercept range. By running in the other direction you force them to run out of range as well. Then they have two options...they can either leave you alone or chase after you and try to kill you. If they leave you alone...meh...kite killing would've taken you up and down one side of AV before you died anyways. Once you leave combat you can always mount up and chase after the hunter and they'll have no way to stop you from closing in to intercept then. If they chase after you then you can turn around and close that 12 yards to intercept/charge and get into melee.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Gollaen

Succubus seduce and fear are on the same diminished returns.

__________________

Tarma: 80 Enhancement Shaman | Koliana: 70 Balance Druid
Salelen: 70 Discipline Priest | Jadrek: 70 Arcane Mage
Kerowhyn: 67 Retribution Paladin | Talenoth: 69 Unholy Death Knight
Caldac: 60 Beast Master Hunter | Kamina: 58 Protection Warrior
Celendra: 45 Combat Rogue


I had it all! I had it all and then I lost it. Lost... all gone... like... my mind. My mind is like... cheese. I like cheese.

Tarenth

Humm...point.

I guess the advantage would be that it doesn't share a cooldown with Howl of Terror or Deathcoil which are instant cast fears. Assuming HoT has talents in it to make it instant cast of course.

Then again Fear itself is only 1.5 seconds so its not that bad even if that's 1.5 seconds you aren't DoTing or draining life/mana/soul.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

aesop rock

First off, I didn't give any examples of where other people use the deadzone because, honestly, if you think no one else used it you're in your own world, and they won't matter.

Next, warlock pet is basically useless against a hunter. Felpup does get a silence which can come in handy, sorta. Seduce is a rediculous suggestion because 1 point of damage breaks seduce every time. And yes, fear and seduce are on the same DR list. Instant howl is 36-37 point affliction, a build that is not very good for *serious* pvp. I could name reasons, but believe me, you have instant HoT, and you won't last long in the arena.

Talents are a part of WoW, and while you could site an "impossibility" for many arguments due to common talent builds, everyone gets 61 to use. With a warlock's core abilities we have a 25 yard range, no instant corruption, no syphon life, terrible drain life, bad mana, bad health, bad armor, no melee abilities, very slow spell-casts, no instant howl, and essentially can't cast any casting time or channeled spells against anyone but another caster (because of spell pushback).

My warrior wears plate. I don't even know why you would suggest otherwise. So, you did a crit on a warrior with a bunch of resilience and for 800 damage. So.. he had good gear, so what? Resilience does this to everyone, and its worse for those who rely on dots, btw. Much worse.

I don't care what mechanic you happen to use for kiting. I really don't. Hunters have both a physical auto-attack that can hit at any range that anyone else can (if not, damn near) AND direct damage plus CC'ish spells that can be fired all while moving away from your target. The details are not important. It's unrealistic and takes away from gameplay, just like bunnyhopping does in many games. Sure, it's difficult. And sure, it requires skill. But those that are unable to do it are left at the mercy of an exploited game mechanic. Now, do I expect hunters, shammies, mages, etc, to utilize kiting? Of *course*, I don't blame them. Do I think blizzard should revamp combat to make kiting and jumping around like an idiot less effective/needed? Oh yeah, definately.

Your last "piece of advice" is clearly a trick. Increase distance from a hunter? LOL. Yeah, that's the ticket. Oh wait, I'm being dazed. Oh wait, I'm being concussioned. Oh, wait, hunters are faster than me. Oh wait, I'm dead. Seriously, what possibly advantage could be gained from moving away from a hunter? LOS is the ONLY thing I can think of, but those pets have plenty of health to keep damage going til you show up with a trap, too close for me to charge, too far for me to hit. Talk about dead zones. Also WHY would a hunter just leave a wounded, slowed, whatever else warrior alone? That never happens, they send their pet in and finish the job. The amount of time you're suggesting it takes for a hunter to kill a warrior is just false. Get real. Across AV twice? I don't even think that requires any kind of a retort. So when they DO chase after me, and they will (we're assuming this is more or less a 1v1, right?) I go to turn around, even taking element of suprise into consideration, giving me another 5 yards, that still leaves me another TWENTY FIVE yards to close before I can intercept. And that's assuming the hunter just stands completely still. Yeah, THAT's totally gonna happen. I have no way of snaring or slowing a hunter until I come within 12 yards, as you know. So taking that into consideration, you still think doing anything but moving TOWARD a hunter (that you're in combat with) is ever a good idea?

__________________
"Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

"Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature.

Tarenth

I love how you compare an untalented warlock to hunter talents and especially say how talent combinations that are impossible are overpowered. Why yes...yes I do believe if you gave a hunter 90 talent points we would be over powered. Why do you ask?

The 'deadzone' is defined as the specific range that is 6-7 yards ONLY. That's the deadzone. 1-5 is melee and 8-35 (41 with talents) is ranged. The recent change removed the deadzone by extending ranged to 6-35(41). Everyone now points to those 2 yards and cries that its the end of the world and that we are overpowered. Go ahead. Think of situations where the deadzone can be exploited by someone other than a balance druid with entangle or a mage with frost nova. Seriously...think of the deadzone and come up with strategies that exploit it that leave the hunter free to act but unable to due to being out of both melee and ranged range.

The fact that someone brings up realisim in a fantasy MMORPG is just grasping at straws. If you don't care about the mechanics of how something works then you really can't complain that you are ignorant of the mechanics and so can't think up of proper counters to a strategy. Its like complaining that your gun is defective because you run out of bullets and you refuse to learn the process of reloading. You just blow your load with everything you do know about and then wave your hands saying "OMG! He somehow got more bullets! He's overpowered!!!"

Hunters have a physical auto attack that can hit anyone from a range of 1-5 yards. This is called melee range and it is the same as everyone else in the game including your warrior and your warlock. Hunters also have an auto-shoot ability that fires an attack at someone who is within 6-35 yards, otherwise known as missile range, as long as we are faced within 90 degrees of the target and remain stationary for 0.5-1 second based on lag and timing. If we are moving during that time then autoshot will fail to activate and we will no longer fire that shot thereby losing our attack. Autoshot is superior to the standard shot in that we can have our attack timer running while we are moving even if we have to be stationary to make the attack. Your warrior and warlock have to be stationary during the entire wind up of their bow/gun/wand in order to fire a round.

Our direct damage shots are as follows:
Autoshot - physical damage affected by armor. If you don't know what this is then you're beyond help
Arcane Shot - arcane damage that scales with RAP and now acts like a purge with a 6 second cooldown
*Aimed Shot - physical damage affected by armor which takes a 3 second wind up, has bonus damage, resets the autoshot timer, and now causes a mortal strike affect for 10 seconds with a cooldown of 6 seconds
Steady Shot - physical damage affected by armor which takes a 1.5 second wind up and has some bonus damage
Multishot - physical damage affected by armor which takes a 0.5 second wind up and has some bonus damage, but can hit 3 different targets with a cooldown of 10 seconds

Direct Damage shots that can be used while moving as you pointed out: Arcane Shot
Direct Damage shots that you have to be stationary to use: Autoshot, Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Multishot

Our CC abilities are as follows:
Concussive Shot: 50% daze for 4 seconds on a 12 second cooldown. Can be talented to stun for 3 seconds at a max rate of 20%
*Scattershot: Disorientates for 4 seconds that breaks on damage on a 30 second cooldown. Has a range of 1-15 yards and is known as one of the two 'anti-deadzone' abilities
*Intimidation: Stuns for 3 seconds on a 60 second cooldown. Pet must be alive and in melee to use intimidation, but it can be blocked, dodged, parried, and resisted.
Fear Beast: Fears beasts. Yes...we have a fear. I've actually used it on a druid a few times. Lets not speak of this ability.
Freezing Trap: Freezes someone for 20 (12) seconds on a 30 second cooldown. Target must walk over the trap which is placed and has a 3 second activation timer before it becomes active. Breaks on any damage and can be avoided/resisted.
Frost Trap: Slows everyone in a10 yard radius and will continue to slow people for 30 seconds. While in the area of affect you will be snared for 1 second until you leave the area. Trap must be walked over and there is a 3 second activation timer before it becomes active.
Wingclip: Snares for 10 seconds and has a range of 1-5 yards (aka melee range). Weakest melee snare compared to Crippling Poison (12 seconds 70% reduction) and Hamstring (15 seconds 50% reduction)

Viper trap is a wild card since the 4 poisonous snakes have a chance to apply crippling, deadly, instant, or mind numbing poison on a target when triggered. The snakes are NPCs, however, and will attack targets near the trap at random. Snakes have around 10 hp and the poison is resistable.

Did you know World War I saw the United States of America bringing revolutionary battlefield tactics to light? They had the bright idea to shoot while moving. It was brilliant! Of course they were using such tactics since the Revolutionary war, but other countries didn't catch on. No longer were soldiers sitting in trenches or charging across open fields to close to melee...they were actually shooting while manuvering. Of course, if they were to do it while retreating in order to supress the enemy and inflict casualties I suppose we would call that kiting. Obviously that's not a realistic tactic however. I mean, who ever tries to keep someone at bay by running away and laying down suppressing fire. Right up there with bunnyhopping I suppose. Ayep...not realistic at all. You should tell the military that since I don't think they're aware they're exploiting human nature to not want to chase after someone still shooting at you. Especially since you can get killed when you get shot at. Hackers the whole lot of them.

^---I'm entitled to one silly ripose since its 1 AM

Charge: 8-25 yards
Interception: 8-25 yards
(whoops, thought it was 30 yards for some reason).
Missile Range: 6-35 (41 with talents) yards
Kite Range: 26-35 yards (41 with talents) Realistically the max would be 32 and 38 as we give ourselves some breathing room.

Now if they're kiting you that means you are 26-41 yards away and chasing the hunter. The hunter is, meanwhile, hitting you with serpent sting and arcane shot since those are the only two abilities they can use while running. Now lets say you were 41 yards away. Just by stopping the hunter will run to 42 yards and will now be out of range which means they either have to turn around and run towards you (running TOWARDS a melee class defeats the purpose of kiting) or give up. If they leave themselves a buffer they will probably keep running for a while and then stop to do a wind up shot for more damage. Of course you could then just run out of range because you are close to their max range and make their attack fail. If you're close to 26 yards then the same is true, but you also have the option of running towards the hunter while they're in the windup to get into intercept/charge range and break it that way.

If you stop and run in the opposite direction then the hunter who is kiting you is running in the opposite direction and the distance between you will grow substancially putting them out of range. They then have the option of running away or turning around and chasing you to put you back in range (see above comment for reference on the wisdom of this). Now as they are running towards you, you can turn around again and run towards them. Its like running away from each other but in reverse. The distance between you will shrink very fast and you'll be able to intercept/charge to get into melee again.

Kiting requires two things:
1) A skilled hunter
2) An incredibly stupid target

Assuming you're as dumb as a brick and chasing after someone determined to keep you at arms distance, then a kiting hunter will be your worst nightmare. If you have two functioning brain cells to rub together then you stop acting like an NPC with a fixation and change the situation to suit your needs for an advantage. Doing things like not running in a straight line (dur...traps), using the enviroment to cut corners and gain distance, tricking the hunter into closing distance with you, or just dropping out of combat by not fighting and mounting up for a speed increase are all viable tactics. Chasing after someone like an NPC because 'you have no choice' is not very high up there.

By the way.
41 - 25 = 16
16 - 5 = 11 assuming the hunter is running towards you as well that would be another 5
11 - 5 = 6
6 =! 25
I have no idea where you got the idea that if two people ran towards each other 5 yards from 41 yards you'd be 50 yards apart. In fact...I don't think I want to think about it much either. Almost tempted to ask where two trains that leave from San Francisco and Los Angeles meet up, but I'm afriaid you'll say something like London or Japan.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Flared

As a holy priest, I find this whole "which class is more overpowered at PvP" argument silly. It should be immediately obvious to anyone that holy priests are the gods of PvP.

Why do you think they gave hunters the ability to purge a magic buff at the same time that they do damage? It's to remove those pesky overpowered priest buffs! Or the ability to do TONS of damage at the same time they put a debuff on the target that reduces incoming heals by 50%? It's to counter the holy priest heals! They didn't do enough though...we are still the best.

Gollaen

Hey Tarenth, would you actually look at the tooltip for wingclip for once. It is not the weakest melee snare out there. It has the shortest duration at 10 sec, but it is a 60% reduction putting it between Crippling and Hamstring. Not to mention you forgot to add in the Improved wing clip talent that roots the target for 5 sec.


Flared, you are mostly correct there. Except that a Disc priest will beat the pants off a holy priest any day.

__________________

Tarma: 80 Enhancement Shaman | Koliana: 70 Balance Druid
Salelen: 70 Discipline Priest | Jadrek: 70 Arcane Mage
Kerowhyn: 67 Retribution Paladin | Talenoth: 69 Unholy Death Knight
Caldac: 60 Beast Master Hunter | Kamina: 58 Protection Warrior
Celendra: 45 Combat Rogue


I had it all! I had it all and then I lost it. Lost... all gone... like... my mind. My mind is like... cheese. I like cheese.

Tarenth

If that's the case then there is also an imp hamstring talent that does the same thing.

The 10% difference in reduction isn't much of an issue considering that hamstring lasts longer and so you will be unable to get away. The difference between all three is that hamstring and crippling do a better job of keeping someone in melee than wingclip does in letting you escape from melee. If a warrior were to hamstring a hunter who wingclips at the same time then in 10 seconds they would be just out of melee range, but the warrior is no longer snared and has 5 extra seconds to make that up and wingclip again whereas the hunter has to risk getting back into melee to reapply the wingclip and risks getting hamstrung again.

You could increase this by using concussion right after the wingclip fades to get a few extra seconds and thus both sides will break snares at the same time. Of course that puts you at around 6 yards still since both are 50% speed snares and you'll be moving at the same speed in roughly the same direction. The only way to counter this would be to stay in melee with the warrior for at least 5 seconds before applying wingclip so that you will get that slight lead when hamstring fades. Of course that leaves the entire 'escaping from melee' part at which point the warrior can just reapply the snare again to renew the duration or beat you down with 4k+ MS/HS combo crits.

While the statement "<class here> is overpowered!" is a fallacy that is commonly used to hide a lack of understanding and skill, the arguements it provokes are still educational. It is by examining strengths and weaknesses and finding counters to them that we adapt to a situation and overcome it.

BTW, shamans have purge, mages have spellsteal, warlocks have felhunters, and priests have dispell and mass dispell to deal with magic buffs. Warriors have Mortal Strike (dur...the original thus why its called a 'mortal strike' effect) and Rogues have Wound poison to deal with healing. Complain about them before you start on hunters who now have similar, yet weaker, abilities.

Also...
^---Quoted for Truth---^

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Sajier

Flared FTW. Thank you for adding some humor to an otherwise boring "which class is better" fest .

__________________
Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

TG WoW Home Page | TG Required Reading | The Irregulars | Irregulars Forum

beep

If I may, I'd like to suggest that class-specific discussions be held in the Tactics forum...

__________________
Beep


Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

Elminnster

Damn priests always win! OP I say. Off I go to QQ on the Blizzard forums. ;-)

Aestryd

Here is my own small, and likely to be responded to with vitriol and aggression comment: Tarenth, while all those classes have those abilities to dispell buffs, all of them cost more mana, and in some cases a lot more mana. In addition to this, none of them do damage at the same time. I can already think of some objections to this thought: it's not much damage, it's less effective b/c of dodge vs. spell resist mechanics. The damage will help with knock-back, or at the least simply do damage, and the dodge vs spell resists is simply something that comes with the ability to put out more attacks than casters.

The only real exception to this last part is an enhancement shaman, but for either MM or BM specs an enhancement shaman should be easy-sauce. Before we start going on about line of sight in that particular situation, let's realize that an enh shaman is a melee damage class that has no charge or stealth ability, or CC whatsoever while they can be easily CCed. So, either I (as an enh shaman) will have to either close the distance as soon as possible, leaving me open to traps, kiting etc (and no, I won't get into the kiting debate either) or try to garbage heal, or garbage cast spells. Both of which I will simply get wtfpwned due to not having any push-back resists.

I will jump on the hunters are OP in pvp "bandwagon" as you so like to ridicule it as well. Because they are. I say this b/c against most classes (not just warriors or locks), but the other classes with much less direct counters to hunters get owned regularly by hunters. The only class I can think of being able to take hunters down regularly (maybe) is rogues, but I don't have a rogue that I've pvped with, so I could be wrong on that. Please don't cite specific examples that only happen in certain situations for each class, as I'm talking about in general in BGs and arenas. Aside from that, of all the classes you mention that we should complain about only have one, maybe 2 main things that hunters have several of.

As vague as that last statement is, what I'm trying to say is that (as an example) a priest has no way to limit healing done to you, they can mass dispell (for 33% of their mana pool) but they can't ensnare. They can mind flay, but that's channeling so can be knocked, dealing a lot less damage (note, the pet is of particular use here). They can heal, but it's already being dealt with with the mortal strike effect. They can fear once every 20 or 30 seconds, so pop a trinket, or if BM BW. This is just an example: hunters have counters for just about every class. Correct, the counters aren't the most effective compared to the class that was designed around the ability, but they are pretty damn close, can be used to great effect against other classes (wing clip shot against enh shaman).

In any case, that's why I think hunters are OP in pvp. Do they need to bring back the deadzone? I'm gonna say no, but do I have any ideas on how to nerf 'em purely in pvp (and not pve) to bring them more in line with other classes? No.

__________________


Aestryd 80 Prot Pally / Epimetheus 70 Feral Druid / Yuusei 74 Enhancement Shaman
Camsmule 70 Fury/Prot Warrior / Tamrissa 70 Affliction Warlock / Aegyn 70 Holy Priest
Shyff 70 Arcane Mage / Indrus 62 Combat Rogue