Re: Restructuring/Redefining Our Guild

**Tarenth** · 07-14-2008, 08:29 PM

I really see no significant change in the way things will be done in the guild with these 'sweeping changes'. The only people really involved are 'middle management' and the change pretty much equates to changing all the 'directors' into 'supervisors'. Yes, I continued the business model.

I am, however, interested to learn on what the Veteran benefits will be and just how people go about qualifying for the VA.

I do have one huge objection, but its only a nit pick. Why Coporal? Seriously. That's an enlisted rank. Why not at least buck them up to NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) status and make them Sergeants?

Heck, if you want to revisit our old ranking scheme (using military ranks) then you could change the veteran rank to Corporal since I'm sure there will be standards on the rank beyond just a tenure in the guild. That way it would make sense if an older memeber with a more casual play style and frequent LoAs remains a 'member' while a new member more involved with the guild acquires the 'veteran' status.

Guild Leader
Officers
Sergeants
Coporals
Members
Alts
Recuits
Holdings
(Somewhere you just know there has to be a STFU rank too)

**ScratchMonkey** · 07-14-2008, 11:44 PM

Any reason not to use the old PvP ranks?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/ranks.html

**Dewidkat** · 07-15-2008, 01:11 PM

"The casual players here at TG will benefit from anything the End-Game sector does, short of leaving guild or kicking everyone out. What I mean is, most reasources that were given to help people that were focused on progression and end game further their goals, also benefits the casual player."

This kind of statement sends us to the old worn out tune of whether raider vrs pvper vrs "causual players" are different. I'll assure you that causual players enjoy the game as much as the players that are in game a few hours a week for raiding. The concept of "End-Game" expresses self edification, more so than enjoyment or ability in play with an element of condescension not worthy of this guild.

Dewidkat

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 01:35 PM

I don't mean to say that someone with the goals of "End Game" is any better than someone with the goals of "Casual Play". What it comes down to is what the individual enjoys doing with their time online.

I personally consider myself as an end-game player with a time restriction due to real life. I enjoy progressing and seeing all the content the game has to offer. I get frustrated when I, or my group, isn't moving ahead. Doing the same content over and over is ok for a short period of time, but it gets boring quickly.

As a casual player, I see their being two types. One is restricted by time, the other by preference. There is something relaxing about running the same instance over and over because it allows you to mellow out after a hard day of real life activities. There is nothing wrong with this, and I understand it totally.

We choose what category we fall under, or our RL activities decide for us by restricting our time playing this game.

Progression in end-game requires more resources, in general, than casual play...and as such, the needs of the casual player are generally met indirectly.

I welcome any ideas as to how we can improve the casual sector of this guild. Maybe it's guild-wide organization or awareness. Maybe it's announcing a player's available days to a current Squad so they can be a stand-in if needed. Maybe it's more guild events like the "Nekkid Gnome Race".

**Aestryd** · 07-15-2008, 01:40 PM

I *know* it's more events like nekkid gnome racing!

**Pistos** · 07-15-2008, 01:43 PM

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvSHarP-Zjc[/media]

mmmm hmmmm

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dewidkat

The concept of "End-Game" expresses self edification, more so than enjoyment or ability in play with an element of condescension not worthy of this guild.

This "expressed" concept comes from the days of old as well. I think of it as a desire to progress to see content. My gear or achievements make me no better than another. These are fickle goals. What I do value is that I enjoy progressing within the game. I see one instance as a means to get loot in order to be strong enough for the next challenge.

When someone says they are an end game player, it means that they are focused on the instances that are at the end of the game. These instances are harder to reach due to organization of larger groups and the coordination of play times. This does not denote elitism.

**Dewidkat** · 07-15-2008, 01:45 PM

The "resources" remain unclear to me. If by "resources", you mean the materials to make potions, drums.... I fully support a squad being self sufficient.

Dewidkat

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 01:51 PM

By resources I mean stuff like:

Forums
Teamspeak
Guild Bank Organization/Useage
Raid Site
Crafting Lists
Portal Page (Soon to be)

This isn't a full list. Most of the above resources are needed by all facets of this guild.

The portal page will help to simplify our large guild while providing an outward face. This will help with recruitment and navigating our website.

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 01:54 PM

I don't consider Karazhan to be end-game...

The raid site allows people, in the form of squads, to organize Karazhan runs. Karazhan is very much a casual style of play now. This is an example of a resource that was originally designed for end game progression that is now used for casual organization.

**Dewidkat** · 07-15-2008, 02:11 PM

Those are valuable resources, indeed, and, I assume, for the most part are paid for by our membership in TG "dues" (my renew is likely due now). Does the guild bank vendor items for the use of squads, individuals? Are the forums, raid pages, portal setup etc done by volunteers ? Does the "end game" recognition bring more "hits" to these pages bringing more resources (income) to help defray the expenses?
Dewidkat

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 02:29 PM

The bank has sold items, and the gold is placed back in the guild bank. Our issue with that is what to do with that gold. It would be obvious for us to use it, and we are looking into ways to start using it. Before it was for Bank tabs.

In the future, it could be used for contests, or purchasing items off the AH for consumption by the guild.

As for turning "hits" into TG subscriptions, we'll also be working on that. I'd like to see the guild members of TG more involved with the TG community.

Volunteers do run/setup the resources here at TG. I personally see to the raid site and will be editing the Portal Page. People like Apophis and Asch provide the TS, Forums, and Community.

The price of setting up these resources isn't the issue. The need for such resources and the act of following through are. The raid site wouldn't exist if someone didn't find it, see it's potential, and then request it. It's use is expanded further once we can see the full potential and make it available to all.

**junebug388** · 07-15-2008, 04:19 PM

The restructuring post describes decisions completely within the right of leadership to do. The real question is as a leader would you want to be inclusive in gathering opinions and when there is a criticisim or expression of feeling about the decision, how is it to be addressed.
I read crim's original post and it seems to me this is logical response from a person who has been here a long time and would have liked to have been included or at least informed in a different way. I am sure many others might have their feelings hurt or be insulted from the tone of "us vs. them" but aren't silly enough to post. I am sorry that no one has really responded to support Crim's feelings of surprise. I think he is just asking the question.
The subsequent posts that are interagative of "what he really meant or be more specific" are actually down right mean and not the act of a leader defining common ground. Any response by an officer to someone with crim's feelings that expressed understanding and listening would have defused that.

I believe there is room for everyone here. I personally never lack anyone to group with and just enjoy the game and i really enjoy the people here. TG does operate as a guild within a guild. This is most recently reflected by Resurgent's move to Monday which was already clearly occupied by another squad and would force members choosing which toon they could run. This decision was presumably because of the 3 nights they already ran they couldn't seem to make a full raid on that night so they would unilaterally make a decision to move to Monday .... a decision I believe not because of disregard or meaness.... but frankly self absorption. I think that leadership here can do whatever they want. There are so many great players here that TG it give the guild a life of its own and not just for the end raiding members. I get excited when resurgent progresses, I get excited when the other squads progress. The more people who move forward the better we will be positioned for any expansion. That is definitely going to take more than 25 well geared people. There is also no doubt that the same thing that happened last time will happen again.... some of the best geared people from MC ------>BWL quit. Normal attrition creates a need to include progression for many people not a few and I see that happening around me MUCH better than pre BC.

In regards to "silly enough to post" BTW , I mean that desenting opinion here is often viewed as a negative thing when in fact it is the best way to problem solve.But the best way to argue is to listen and difference should NOT creat distance.

Respectfully,

June

**orion808** · 07-15-2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by junebug388

The subsequent posts that are interagative of "what he really meant or be more specific" are actually down right mean and not the act of a leader defining common ground. Any response by an officer to someone with crim's feelings that expressed understanding and listening would have defused that.

I spoke to Crim directly on TS. I was not being mean. I was not understanding him or his point of view. I still don't. If we were a group of 20 people, I might, but this guild is too large to truly poll every individual and get a response in a timely manner. If I am the GM, I need to have some autonomy...and some trust that I won't lead the guild down some dark alley. Yes, communication should be improved, I complain about this at my workplace too, but the leaders I have no issue with, and I know they have me in their interest when they make decisions.

If you have an issue with me being GM, or a leader, please PM me or find me on TS and give me the reasoning. I'd rather not get negative or be insulted like this in public.

Originally Posted by junebug388

This is most recently reflected by Resurgent's move to Monday which was already clearly occupied by another squad and would force members choosing which toon they could run. This decision was presumably because of the 3 nights they already ran they couldn't seem to make a full raid on that night so they would unilaterally make a decision to move to Monday .... a decision I believe not because of disregard or meanness.... but frankly self absorption.

Self-absorption...interesting. Resurgent ran poll a little while back that placed Monday pretty high on our "3rd possible day" list. We decided that such a move might hurt Delirium, so we opted to try other days. When those didn't work, we warned Delirium of the issue and the switch to Mondays. This wasn't a hasty decision. This didn't happen because Resurgent is self-absorbed. Resurgent needed a 3rd day in order to progress, and it's members were willing to run a 3rd day to accomplish that.

Can you explain how this further? I can't seem to understand the reasoning behind you saying that.

**Dewidkat** · 07-15-2008, 05:22 PM

"Self-absorption...interesting. Resurgent ran poll", not the active raiding players ran a poll cooperatively, "Resurgent ran poll". Perhaps the word "warned" in warned Delerium does seem selfless to Resurgent members...interesting.

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