End-game pacing

**beep** · 03-22-2006, 02:59 PM

As part of the move toward more end-game content, I want to take a moment to share some thoughts about this. Bits have shown up in various threads or in guild chat or other spots. By starting a thread, my hope is to stimulate some thinking about end-game and the actions and attitudes needed.

Preparation: You need to get your main toon leveled and equipped. And you need to do it sooner rather than later. If you are already there, then you get a gold star on your forehead!!! That means keys, attunement, set pieces and FR gear. In my experience, this takes a long time and many runs through Scholo, Strat, BRD, LBRS and UBRS. Now...once you have all this neat stuff (Valor, Lightforge, Beaststalker, etc) you have a whole range of gear upgrades...plus the next tier up of set pieces. This is what you go to ZG, MC and AQ20 for. In my case, I've been at level 60 longer than it took me to get there...and I'm still basically "pre-MC" geared with a couple of epics and good blue gear. If you can do it faster than I did, you get my congratulations and +50 DKP!!!

Respeccing: Your character needs to be specced for group success. It will almost certainly gimp your farming ability or your PVP ability. The talents that you used to solo and level up are RARELY what you need for raid effectiveness. Get over it! Either you are willing to take one for the team or you will handicap the team. We've got lots of discussion about respeccing...and you'll see more. I expect we'll see class leaders as resources for this.

Attitude: We need to declare war on end-game! We should be passionate about learning the raid instances and the bosses. We need to be pushing our leaders for more scheduled raids. We need to work together to create an attitude of progress, KNOWING that we will not one-shot every boss until we learn it. Taking down the end-game bosses requires sound tactics, good leadership, the right gear and the right attitude to do what the leader requires. THIS IS NOT SOLO TACTICS IN A GROUP SETTING! Hunters will work without pets. Rogues will work without poison. Warlocks have to be selective in their DOTs. Warriors will mostly stay in Defensive Stance with a one-hander and shield. Healers will NOT cast DPS spells. Every class has to adjust for end-game raids.

Raid SOPs: Posted elsewhere. Read it and heed it. Comm discipline!!! Comm discipline!!! Let the leader lead! etc. etc. If you can't abide by the rules, you may get booted.

Scheduling: Start to think about 40 man raids on the weekends, probably for two consecutive nights (e.g. Friday and Saturday). ZG during the week for at least two consecutive nights...maybe even twice during the week. Yeah, I know...I'll have to slow down work on my alt, but he'll have more rested xp. Does this seem like a lot? You bet! It IS a lot, but it's how we have to do things to learn.

Progress: We will do ZG again and again until we get it on farming status, able to one-shot most bosses. You'll probably get sick of it, but there is good gear to be had, and it's part of the learning process. MC will be scheduled with partners until we can staff our own raids. We need to recruit, recruit, recruit. We need 55+ players with the same goals we have!! We'll be inviting non-guildies along when and where we can to give them a taste of who we are and how we operate. Believe me, it's a big deal to leave your guild

[insert smiley for irony here!!!] so we need to do what we can to make getting acquainted easier on everyone.

DKP: Is this in our future? Probably...because it will reward those who are on time, regular in participation and who persist until we take down new bosses. Will it be immediate? Dunno 'bout that, but it's under consideration. The best guilds use this sort of system 'cause it works.

Just G · 03-22-2006, 03:03 PM

(sorry to cut in on your post but...)
WoW Guys n Gals
Your Forum looks PHAT

Love what you have done with the place, Makes a man wanna come n live here

Phantom · 03-22-2006, 03:10 PM

Now that I am level 60 I am ready to hit this stuff head on. I should be able to make it to most runs and am willing to dedicate that much time to helping the guild.

Altor · 03-22-2006, 03:45 PM

I just can't see DKP as a good thing. There is a core group that will earn most of it. I just can't see going on a raid and something I need drops but I don't get a chance at it because I don't raid much. Maybe if this guild had hundreds of people that do raids. We don't. What if we have non-guildies in the group? Then what? I'm excited about end game, but not at the cost of my job and family. DKP is not my friend!

**Tonk** · 03-22-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just G

(sorry to cut in on your post but...)
WoW Guys n Gals
Your Forum looks PHAT

Love what you have done with the place, Makes a man wanna come n live here

we got room

**Tonk** · 03-22-2006, 03:49 PM

from what i have heard.. the system we will use will actually be fair... as in.... giantstalker chest dropps, i have -40dkp, because i won the belt... crebis(who already has it, doesnt want to bid, he has -38 dkp.. hunter X is running for the first time... so he has 0dkp... how it works.... the person with the most DKP has the first chance to buy it.... so hunter X (who has NEVER been on a raid with us before) buys it.. thus walking away with /drool a GS brestplate.... if hunter X already had it, so did crebis with 38.. THEN i would be able to bid on it with my -40dkp, thus making me have -80dkp

**beep** · 03-22-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor

I just can't see DKP as a good thing. There is a core group that will earn most of it. I just can't see going on a raid and something I need drops but I don't get a chance at it because I don't raid much. Maybe if this guild had hundreds of people that do raids. We don't. What if we have non-guildies in the group? Then what? I'm excited about end game, but not at the cost of my job and family. DKP is not my friend!

Two comments, Altor...
1. DKP is more troublesome if our raids are not guild-only...hard to adjust for joint ventures/alliances. My crystal ball says no change to the current system for the near future.
2. There are ALL SORTS of DKP schemes. Crebis and others have been researching for months. None of them are perfect. Many of them can accomodate the infrequent participant. While I firmly believe you should express your concerns, I'd recommend reserving final judgement until we see the details of any proposed scheme. The leadership of this guild agonizes endlessly over "fairness"...that's a fact...and a good thing, IMO.

**luna** · 03-22-2006, 04:05 PM

Right. No panic attacks on the whole DKP thing, guys. We have been working really hard to find a system that suits our style, whether you're a hardcore raider or a weekend warrior. All of the systems we have looked into have stood out as very fair, and we've felt that they would not cause trouble for those who are occassionally with us.

No need to say goodbye to your social life or your family, either. You come when you can come, and we will have plenty of folks itching to get in there should you be unable to come.

**luna** · 03-22-2006, 04:06 PM

Oh, and Beep, great post!!! I'm so excited.

Adresdesar · 03-22-2006, 04:09 PM

I am on every night and ready for ZG twice a week bring it on.

**beep** · 03-22-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adresdesar

I am on every night and ready for ZG twice a week bring it on.

ah...warriors FTW...

**Tonk** · 03-22-2006, 04:18 PM

BEEEEEEEEP, welcome back /woot

**Quarath** · 03-22-2006, 04:29 PM

Agreed . I still have not got all my Beast set. I know many have pugged them out and I have some as well but I would love to see lots of strat scholo and ubrs and lbrs runs hit hard especially before the patch. I would like to see guild runs so these can get knocked out quickley with speed of run emphasized as much as can be done safely.

**beep** · 03-22-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarath

Agreed . I still have not got all my Beast set. I know many have pugged them out and I have some as well but I would love to see lots of strat scholo and ubrs and lbrs runs hit hard especially before the patch. I would like to see guild runs so these can get knocked out quickley with speed of run emphasized as much as can be done safely.

Yeah...that's what I'm talking about...I'm sure you can find some company. Leaders, let's get some instance runs on the calendar!!!

Sunderland · 03-22-2006, 04:50 PM

not sure about two nights in a row while im still in school but as soon as summer comes you might see me scheduling a few raids if we are at the point of almost farm on ZG.

Thanks for mentioning respeccing I think only a few people have changed to the specs I posted in the strategy forums! This is important until we get the UBER gear that makes it not matter what spec you are in endgame...I dont care what golerth has been posting on that thread I have seen these specs work their magic time and again and if he doesnt believe me thats his deal.

DKP is what this lock wants. In terms of item purchasing among other things. At the very least we need a reward system for those of us who show up to raids planned half a week beforehand ON TIME.

03-22-2006, 02:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
beep Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,422	End-game pacing As part of the move toward more end-game content, I want to take a moment to share some thoughts about this. Bits have shown up in various threads or in guild chat or other spots. By starting a thread, my hope is to stimulate some thinking about end-game and the actions and attitudes needed. Preparation: You need to get your main toon leveled and equipped. And you need to do it sooner rather than later. If you are already there, then you get a gold star on your forehead!!! That means keys, attunement, set pieces and FR gear. In my experience, this takes a long time and many runs through Scholo, Strat, BRD, LBRS and UBRS. Now...once you have all this neat stuff (Valor, Lightforge, Beaststalker, etc) you have a whole range of gear upgrades...plus the next tier up of set pieces. This is what you go to ZG, MC and AQ20 for. In my case, I've been at level 60 longer than it took me to get there...and I'm still basically "pre-MC" geared with a couple of epics and good blue gear. If you can do it faster than I did, you get my congratulations and +50 DKP!!! Respeccing: Your character needs to be specced for group success. It will almost certainly gimp your farming ability or your PVP ability. The talents that you used to solo and level up are RARELY what you need for raid effectiveness. Get over it! Either you are willing to take one for the team or you will handicap the team. We've got lots of discussion about respeccing...and you'll see more. I expect we'll see class leaders as resources for this. Attitude: We need to declare war on end-game! We should be passionate about learning the raid instances and the bosses. We need to be pushing our leaders for more scheduled raids. We need to work together to create an attitude of progress, KNOWING that we will not one-shot every boss until we learn it. Taking down the end-game bosses requires sound tactics, good leadership, the right gear and the right attitude to do what the leader requires. THIS IS NOT SOLO TACTICS IN A GROUP SETTING! Hunters will work without pets. Rogues will work without poison. Warlocks have to be selective in their DOTs. Warriors will mostly stay in Defensive Stance with a one-hander and shield. Healers will NOT cast DPS spells. Every class has to adjust for end-game raids. Raid SOPs: Posted elsewhere. Read it and heed it. Comm discipline!!! Comm discipline!!! Let the leader lead! etc. etc. If you can't abide by the rules, you may get booted. Scheduling: Start to think about 40 man raids on the weekends, probably for two consecutive nights (e.g. Friday and Saturday). ZG during the week for at least two consecutive nights...maybe even twice during the week. Yeah, I know...I'll have to slow down work on my alt, but he'll have more rested xp. Does this seem like a lot? You bet! It IS a lot, but it's how we have to do things to learn. Progress: We will do ZG again and again until we get it on farming status, able to one-shot most bosses. You'll probably get sick of it, but there is good gear to be had, and it's part of the learning process. MC will be scheduled with partners until we can staff our own raids. We need to recruit, recruit, recruit. We need 55+ players with the same goals we have!! We'll be inviting non-guildies along when and where we can to give them a taste of who we are and how we operate. Believe me, it's a big deal to leave your guild [insert smiley for irony here!!!] so we need to do what we can to make getting acquainted easier on everyone. DKP: Is this in our future? Probably...because it will reward those who are on time, regular in participation and who persist until we take down new bosses. Will it be immediate? Dunno 'bout that, but it's under consideration. The best guilds use this sort of system 'cause it works. __________________ Beep Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov) Last edited by beep; 03-22-2006 at 03:41 PM.

03-22-2006, 03:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
Just G Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: N London, England Age: 34 Posts: 552	Re: End-game pacing (sorry to cut in on your post but...) WoW Guys n Gals Your Forum looks PHAT Love what you have done with the place, Makes a man wanna come n live here

03-22-2006, 03:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Altor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 439	Re: End-game pacing I just can't see DKP as a good thing. There is a core group that will earn most of it. I just can't see going on a raid and something I need drops but I don't get a chance at it because I don't raid much. Maybe if this guild had hundreds of people that do raids. We don't. What if we have non-guildies in the group? Then what? I'm excited about end game, but not at the cost of my job and family. DKP is not my friend!

03-22-2006, 03:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tonk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Luck, WI USA Age: 22 Posts: 3,026	Re: End-game pacing from what i have heard.. the system we will use will actually be fair... as in.... giantstalker chest dropps, i have -40dkp, because i won the belt... crebis(who already has it, doesnt want to bid, he has -38 dkp.. hunter X is running for the first time... so he has 0dkp... how it works.... the person with the most DKP has the first chance to buy it.... so hunter X (who has NEVER been on a raid with us before) buys it.. thus walking away with /drool a GS brestplate.... if hunter X already had it, so did crebis with 38.. THEN i would be able to bid on it with my -40dkp, thus making me have -80dkp __________________ -Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a beer in the other, body totally worn out screaming "YEEEHAW, WHAT A RIDE!!!" - my grandpa -My New Rig: cpu: AMD 6400+ 3.2ghz dual core mobo: Asus Crosshair ram: 8gb (4x2gb) geil exotera 4-4-4-12 video card MSI 8800GTS 512mb (g92) Vista:x64 Laptop: Dell i9300 2.16ghz-2gb ram-6800-17" 1920x1200 -Toasty/Tonk/Chair http://tgtonk.notlong.com

03-22-2006, 04:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,136	Re: End-game pacing Right. No panic attacks on the whole DKP thing, guys. We have been working really hard to find a system that suits our style, whether you're a hardcore raider or a weekend warrior. All of the systems we have looked into have stood out as very fair, and we've felt that they would not cause trouble for those who are occassionally with us. No need to say goodbye to your social life or your family, either. You come when you can come, and we will have plenty of folks itching to get in there should you be unable to come. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

03-22-2006, 04:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,136	Re: End-game pacing Oh, and Beep, great post!!! I'm so excited. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

03-22-2006, 04:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
Adresdesar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 8	Re: End-game pacing I am on every night and ready for ZG twice a week bring it on. __________________

03-22-2006, 04:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tonk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Luck, WI USA Age: 22 Posts: 3,026	Re: End-game pacing BEEEEEEEEP, welcome back /woot __________________ -Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a beer in the other, body totally worn out screaming "YEEEHAW, WHAT A RIDE!!!" - my grandpa -My New Rig: cpu: AMD 6400+ 3.2ghz dual core mobo: Asus Crosshair ram: 8gb (4x2gb) geil exotera 4-4-4-12 video card MSI 8800GTS 512mb (g92) Vista:x64 Laptop: Dell i9300 2.16ghz-2gb ram-6800-17" 1920x1200 -Toasty/Tonk/Chair http://tgtonk.notlong.com

03-22-2006, 04:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
Quarath Join Date: May 2003 Location: Utah Age: 36 Posts: 742	Re: End-game pacing Agreed . I still have not got all my Beast set. I know many have pugged them out and I have some as well but I would love to see lots of strat scholo and ubrs and lbrs runs hit hard especially before the patch. I would like to see guild runs so these can get knocked out quickley with speed of run emphasized as much as can be done safely. __________________ "they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

03-22-2006, 04:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sunderland Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 311	Re: End-game pacing not sure about two nights in a row while im still in school but as soon as summer comes you might see me scheduling a few raids if we are at the point of almost farm on ZG. Thanks for mentioning respeccing I think only a few people have changed to the specs I posted in the strategy forums! This is important until we get the UBER gear that makes it not matter what spec you are in endgame...I dont care what golerth has been posting on that thread I have seen these specs work their magic time and again and if he doesnt believe me thats his deal. DKP is what this lock wants. In terms of item purchasing among other things. At the very least we need a reward system for those of us who show up to raids planned half a week beforehand ON TIME. __________________ -Hold onto the pin, throw the other part

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