View Poll Results: Should Supporting Members Get Special Benefits

**Apophis** · 04-27-2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Altor

The more I read about becoming an SM, the more I feel that is the driving force of the guild. I understand this is someone's income. I like many of the people in this guild. But WOW players can go almost anywhere and be able to play end-game. I just don't see TG being a sucessfull guild if we continuously pressure people to pay money to you. Don't be confused by saying it's only a perk. You are making one group of people better then another.

Tactical Gamer always has the desire to reward and/or thank people that help support this community. You know, the TeamSpeak server, web site, database server, backups, and other services offered such as the Roster, WOW Profiler, Raid Signup system, etc.

Some people don't appreciate any of that, some do.

**Drizzid** · 04-27-2006, 11:45 AM

The more I read about becoming an SM, the more I feel that is the driving force of the guild. I understand this is someone's income. I like many of the people in this guild. But WOW players can go almost anywhere and be able to play end-game. I just don't see TG being a sucessfull guild if we continuously pressure people to pay money to you. Don't be confused by saying it's only a perk. You are making one group of people better then another.

I am not a WoW player although I am considering getting it and I know that WoW is a different situation than any other game here at TG. But I think you need to rephrase your statement about "pressuring". No one here is pressuring anyone to become a SM. I have never seen anyone pressure any individual to become a SM no matter what game. But to keep all the things we have here like TS and the forums TG needs to have people become SM. If "perks" aren't offered to "encourage" people to become a SM then this place would not be here. I am a suppoting member because there is no other place like it on the net. Your right that you can go somewhere else but remember that very few communities have the variety and quality of people that are here at TG. JMHO

**beep** · 04-27-2006, 11:50 AM

I want to expand on the idea of how a DKP bonus for SM's might work.

I'll use an example to give a sense of numbers/proportions:
1. Typical DKP "accrual" for 40 Man MC raid might work this way...
2. Let's say 5 items dropped:

a. Cenarion Belt - 28DKP
b. Lawbringer Boots - 28 DKP
c. Bracers of Might - 20 DKP
d. Gloves of Prophecy - 28 DKP
e. Eshkander's Right Claw - 30 DKP

That totals 134 DKP deducted from the DKP for the winners. For all attendees...3.3 DKP is added to each person (134/40)...(that's why it's zero sum...the winners DKP is zero'd out over all attendees).
3. As you can see, DKP doesn't add up very fast and is really used to determine who gets priority over the next desirable item...highest DKP gets the item in question (subject to class requirements) unless they choose to pass. With Zero Sum DKP, DKP is not like gold that is banked and spent in bidding. The DKP are used to determine who is at the head of the queue for item drops. When you win, you end up at the tail of the queue until you accrue back to the head of the line.
4. Let's assume (for the sake of discussion) that SM's get a 10% "bonus" on their DKP. In this example, they would receive 3.7 DKP rather than 3.3 DKP for this raid. They would still pay the same for any new item. They would still drop to the tail of the line after winning. BUT they would recover/accrue DKP slightly faster than non-SM's.

**Tonk** · 04-27-2006, 11:56 AM

hey beep... to balance the 0sum... would not the non-SM get less dkp.. or the cost be slightly bumped up to adjust?

**beep** · 04-27-2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Altor

I think if we start offering more in-game to SM's, then it will create a rift between us.

That is a concern we have and is one of the reasons for starting this thread. A little sunshine is helpful on almost any topic.

On a side note, please allow me to state what I am seeing since I'm not in the officers group and haven't been here that long. It seems the something is always being done to lose guildies. I really don't know what the deal was when we loast Skeet, Kossi, and a lot of others. But I do remember being a Supporting Member was discussed in a lot of those threads.

Altor, as you might guess, officers are not in a position to reveal private discussions. I can tell you that each departure was for unique reasons. If you want to know more, you can contact each person who left. We care passionately about the guild and its well-being along with that of the members. Part of our process to raise questions for ourselves about why people leave...or stay. This discussion is part of that process.

Now we are talking about making one group of people "better" then the rest of the guild. You may not see it as that, but that is what you are doing.

The more I read about becoming an SM, the more I feel that is the driving force of the guild. I understand this is someone's income. I like many of the people in this guild. But WOW players can go almost anywhere and be able to play end-game. I just don't see TG being a sucessfull guild if we continuously pressure people to pay money to you. Don't be confused by saying it's only a perk. You are making one group of people better then another.

I'm glad to have your opinion on this...and any topic, really. We are trying to devise a way to recognize and reward SM's based on the underlying idea that they are doing more than non-SM's to make this community possible and successful. It makes sense to me that they should have some benefits for that support. Such benefits should be "above board" and visible to all, given even-handedly to all SM's. No hidden rewards.

We do NOT pressure anyone to become an SM, but I can see how it could be viewed that way.

You are correct that WoW players can join other guilds. We hope that TG members will stay with us because we offer them a combination of gameplay, fun, social connections and on-line benefits that matches what they seek. We are NOT the guild for everyone. Part of our history and the broad TG community is the Supporting Membership option. Encouraging people to become SM's is not pressure. Pressure is being required to attend 3 raids a week or be booted. Pressure is being required to contribute 3 stacks of icecap a week to the guild.

You use phrases like "...making one group of people better than another...". "Better" to me is a loaded word which can carry lots of emotional overtones. Let me ask you...what do you think is a reasonable way to acknowledge the contribution of SM's? Is doing nothing "fair" to them? I'm not trying to challenge you...but I'm interested in exploring possibilities.

**Vinzalf** · 04-27-2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by beep

I want to expand on the idea of how a DKP bonus for SM's might work.

I'll use an example to give a sense of numbers/proportions:
1. Typical DKP "accrual" for 40 Man MC raid might work this way...
2. Let's say 5 items dropped:

a. Cenarion Belt - 28DKP
b. Lawbringer Boots - 28 DKP
c. Bracers of Might - 20 DKP
d. Gloves of Prophecy - 28 DKP
e. Eshkander's Right Claw - 30 DKP

That totals 134 DKP deducted from the DKP for the winners. For the 35 attendees who DIDN'T WIN...3.3 DKP is added to each person (134/40)...(that's why it's zero sum...the winners DKP is zero'd out over all attendees).
3. As you can see, DKP doesn't add up very fast and is really used to determine who gets priority over the next desirable item...highest DKP gets the item in question (subject to class requirements) unless they choose to pass. With Zero Sum DKP, DKP is not like gold that is banked and spent in bidding. The DKP are used to determine who is at the head of the queue for item drops. When you win, you end up at the tail of the queue until you accrue back to the head of the line.
4. Let's assume (for the sake of discussion) that SM's get a 10% "bonus" on their DKP. In this example, they would receive 3.7 DKP rather than 3.3 DKP for this raid. They would still pay the same for any new item. They would still drop to the tail of the line after winning. BUT they would recover/accrue DKP slightly faster than non-SM's.

It would have to be a modifier to make it remain Zero-Sum. ex:

Warrior has 24 DKP
SMWarrior has 23 DKP

lets say we wanted to do it this way. 2 DKP is decided for the SM 'Bonus' or whatever you wish to call it. then the modified DKP levels at the start of the raid would be

Warrior has 24 DKP
SMWarrior has 25 DKP

In this instance, it changes the loot priority, but not always. It would need to be a flat rate 'bonus' and it would be 'known', not recorded.

Altor; pretty much every game here on TG has 'perks' for the SMs. Maybe a few SM's "require" these perks to remain SMs. Maybe a few SM's don't require anything. I don't require anything. I support this community as long as my budget allows, regardless of what games I play at the time. but, I'm also in the IT Field, I know how expencive things like this are to setup, maintain, administer, and develop. There are a ton of things that I believe are taken for granted. It's not about making money, it's about supporting this community so it's not a burden on anyone. Because it can be a huge burden.

Like I said, it's not a requirement, but there should be a distinction for those who do.

And complaints about money hoarding, or leaving the guild because of it, or becoming an SM because of it; should not be a part of this conversation. We got along fine without them in the past, but that does not mean we should not search to find something.

I don't wish to pat myself on the back for supporting this place. I wish to thank each and every other SM for helping this place stay around.

**beep** · 04-27-2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Chair

hey beep... to balance the 0sum... would not the non-SM get less dkp.. or the cost be slightly bumped up to adjust?

I'm not sure, Chair...I'd defer to the real experts. It may well be that they just get a bump in points after the raid numbers are totaled. Zero sum schemes do (I am told) require periodic balancing and adjustments.

**CingularDuality** · 04-27-2006, 12:39 PM

I'm not up to speed on the WoW talk in this thread, but I'd like to point out (again) that there are lots of people that make TG a great place to play games. There are also a few people that contribute monetarily to ensure that TG exists so that lots of people can make TG a great place to play games. Those few people that contribute should be rewarded whenever possible. I don't know that the rewards should have an effect on gameplay, though. Priority for scrims/raids is an obvious example of the type of reward that not many people can argue against.

As for complaints of divisiveness? Well, supporting members should be treated different. They're the ones ensuring that all of this exists for everyone to use. They should, therefore, get priority on the use. If a non-SM can't get over that, well, TG is intended for mature gamers.

Keep in mind that my comments are just theoretical/philosophical. Not being a WoW player, I'm sorry that I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to throw my opinion out there... Oh, and I didn't vote in the poll, but I would have voted "It depends on the benefits".

**Altor** · 04-27-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Apophis

Tactical Gamer always has the desire to reward and/or thank people that help support this community. You know, the TeamSpeak server, web site, database server, backups, and other services offered such as the Roster, WOW Profiler, Raid Signup system, etc.

Some people don't appreciate any of that, some do.

Apophis, I want to tell you first off. I appreciate everything you do for this community. I sure as hell don't know everything you do, but I know enough. You have created an environment where many people can enjoy not only playing games together, but friendships as well. I don't want that to get lost or forgotten in my comments.

I, for one, don't need any thanks/rewards for helping to support this community. I have a great job and am able to contribute monetarily. I am also appreciative for the great "extra's" you provide to help enhance our gaming experience. That in and of itself is worth becoming an SM.

In my opinion, the problem lies when you tell people they are better/prefered because they have the means to support financialy. What about the people who tirelessy, farm mobs to send items/gold to the bank? What about the people who are always available to help fellow guildies? Do these people not also contribute to the TG community? It might just be the WoW TG community but they are still busting their butts to help. Are you going to tell them thanks, but you're still not as good as the SM's?

I would rather not be disignated as a problem. Pandora's box was opened when this was posted on the public forum. I am very opinionated and will gladly share it.

**Altor** · 04-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vinzalf

Altor; But, I'm also in the IT Field, I know how expencive things like this are to setup, maintain, administer, and develop. There are a ton of things that I believe are taken for granted. It's not about making money, it's about supporting this community so it's not a burden on anyone. Because it can be a huge burden.

I am also in the IT field and know these costs. I think it ws once said that there are over 3000 SM's currently.

3000 * 7.80(average cost of membership) * 12 = $280,800/year

As a business, that should cover costs and provide a full time salary.

And complaints about money hoarding, or leaving the guild because of it, or becoming an SM because of it; should not be a part of this conversation. We got along fine without them in the past, but that does not mean we should not search to find something.

I disagree on this. If the guild has high turnover, then it stops being an end-game guild and starts being just about a core group of friends. A clique.

I don't wish to pat myself on the back for supporting this place. I wish to thank each and every other SM for helping this place stay around.

Then thank them. Make a post. Have a page devoted just to those people. SM's can do things on this website that others can't. The arcade comes to mind.

Again...all of this is just my opinion. Opinions can be wrong, or they can be right...

**Apophis** · 04-27-2006, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Altor

Apophis, I want to tell you first off. I appreciate everything you do for this community. I sure as hell don't know everything you do, but I know enough. You have created an environment where many people can enjoy not only playing games together, but friendships as well. I don't want that to get lost or forgotten in my comments.

I, for one, don't need any thanks/rewards for helping to support this community. I have a great job and am able to contribute monetarily. I am also appreciative for the great "extra's" you provide to help enhance our gaming experience. That in and of itself is worth becoming an SM.

In my opinion, the problem lies when you tell people they are better/prefered because they have the means to support financialy. What about the people who tirelessy, farm mobs to send items/gold to the bank? What about the people who are always available to help fellow guildies? Do these people not also contribute to the TG community? It might just be the WoW TG community but they are still busting their butts to help. Are you going to tell them thanks, but you're still not as good as the SM's?

I would rather not be disignated as a problem. Pandora's box was opened when this was posted on the public forum. I am very opinionated and will gladly share it.

Altor,

And you are a great type of member to have! It's always nice to have people choose to become supporting members because they value the community. We do the best we can to provide an environment that makes people want to hang around no matter what game they play.

I do agree with telling people they are "better" or "preferred" because they are supporting members, but I think that's all solved with careful wording. While things like farming mobs to send gold to the bank is helpful to those people that play WoW, It doesn't help keep the community alive. I would be a happy man if I could send the datacenter WoW gold instead of USD green.

For the record, I will say that I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. We've had our share of SM's that were a complete nightmare and wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone in anything. Being a SM is just a different type of support that benefits the community as a whole rather than the players of one game.

**Apophis** · 04-27-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Altor

I am also in the IT field and know these costs. I think it ws once said that there are over 3000 SM's currently.

3000 * 7.80(average cost of membership) * 12 = $280,800/year

As a business, that should cover costs and provide a full time salary.

Holy cow. I wish that number was real. It's not even close to 3,000 SM's. I think someone stuck an extra "0" on the end of that estimate.

I don't get a salary. I still work a 40-50 hour a week job as a Security & Assurance Consultant and then come home at night to spend another 40-50 hours a week managing and maintaining TG.

**Altor** · 04-27-2006, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Apophis

Holy cow. I wish that number was real. It's not even close to 3,000 SM's. I think someone stuck an extra "0" on the end of that estimate.

Then I apologize for that part of my post Apophis. I thought I had seen that number before.

/bow

That actually, now that I think about it, sort of changes my mind/stance just a bit.

**Manny** · 04-27-2006, 03:40 PM

*Edit* Evil Evil page didn't load fully when i wrote this. I hate being so horribly far behind sometimes... /sigh*

Altor and Amrod have raised good points.

Altor.. Alot of the annoyance with the SM thing with skeet and kossi was an ongoing argument about non sm's being officers. here at TG, there's a precedent... all other game admins are SM's... it's part of the difference between WoW and say, BF2. As ScratchMonkey said, there are tangible benefits for being a BF2 playing SM, and their contributions as SM's showed that they were really and truly devoted to the TG community.We changed that for the WoW players though, and now allow even the Non Sm's to be officers. (you'll note we're no longer game admins though.)

Personally, I'm a supporting member because i value what TG has to offer, and not only in WoW. someday, when i've managed to shake the habit, I have every intention of getting on one of TG's servers, and get turned into Swiss cheese in the FPS of my choosing.

Don't become SM's for the perks, become SM's because you appreciate TG... You're still welcome in the guild either way.

**Mateo** · 04-27-2006, 04:09 PM

First of all: I am appreciative that this discussion has been really civil, since it could have easily gone the other way.

Next, Beep posted this to float ideas, get the "tenor" of the community, so nothing is set in stone. I think it's somewhat disingenous to post a poll about it, since the bulk of our Guild members rarely, if ever, set foot in the forums.

That said, Tactical Gamer has a long history of providing incentives to supporting members: preferential access to servers, scrimmages, email, webspace, galleries, blogs....I probably forget more benefits than I actually use. Apophis does just about everything he can to provide a tangible benefit for someone willing to pay the monthly or annual fee.

I'm not saying that someone has to sign up to get what they need out of the Guild or the game: take a look around the forums, we don't say "you are not a supporting member, so you are a second class citizen." We just try to make it worth people's while to do so.

I don't think that players that came in from WoW really get what Tactical Gamer the Community is about. Maybe that will come in time.

If you branch outside of WoW for one night, I bet you would really get a better sense of where the Guild comes from.

I bet alot of you wonder why we Tactical Gamers are so rabid about this place: why we defend the community, why we line up beside Apophis. They only way you will know that is by joining us.

Go ahead, pick any game we host. Tell the admins/players that you are a Guildie. PM me-I'll help you out with any title we host. Join us in a game.

Then, come back and tell me if this place isn't worth $9 per month.