shoulda brought my box

**Tonk** · 05-28-2006, 12:29 AM

how goes mc? lol

Phantom · 05-28-2006, 02:34 AM

One shotted 5 Bosses and about to pull Shazzrah.

**orion808** · 05-28-2006, 03:43 AM

Had trouble with Shazz's AOE and then had respawn....but yeah, 5 one-shotted bosses before him.

**Tonk** · 05-29-2006, 01:40 AM

wat bout sunday?
kinda glad i dint bring my box with.. met Shawn Scott at my uncle's bar (stiffler from American Pie) =D

**Vinzalf** · 05-29-2006, 01:55 AM

Tonight was le bad for TG in MC. To me it diddn't feel like everyone was totally into it like last night, then again, last night we plowed through all the ones we knew how to kill with hardly any effort.

Theres two things we can try: 1.) Not being so good at the first 5 so we don't get totally humbled by the rest, or 2.) Keep plowing through the first 5 and keep going until we get it right.

1 is the slow and steady option, 2 is the rolling boulder option.

**Tonk** · 05-29-2006, 01:57 AM

uh... what bosses got downed???

Phantom · 05-29-2006, 05:14 AM

none chair, none at all

Shazz we had issues with people staying in their group, they kept spreading out.
Sulfuron a few people had left so we were down a few, tanks went down and the Priests walked through the raid.
Golemagg even more people left, tanks went down with being low on healing at this point.

**Tarenth** · 05-29-2006, 05:23 AM

Ouch. Thats just...ow.

In other news, since the PTB with the DKP site are VERY good about keeping things updated as things drop, you can check out what dropped on what day and make an educated guess on what was killed or not killed.

Now here's a question that I was wondering about:

Will something be done to compensate the people who went on the 5/29 raid for the crappy luck they had with the bosses when it comes to DKP? While a quick run through the bosses is a good thing for the guild, it kinda makes certain raid days seem more important for earning DKP than others. If every Saturday you one-shot 5 bosses, and every Sunday you maybe attempt 2-3 and get a kill or two then the people who make the Saturday run have an advantage over the people who run on Sunday. Of course as we get better at running MC and taking down bosses we'll start to consistantly kill things on both days. Yet again, as we get better geared and learn these encounters we will also kill the bosses much much faster. We may encounter a point in our raiding where we can kill all 8 bosses on Saturday leaving Sunday to killing Rags and Majordomo. While the loot from Rags and Majordomo are exceptionally good the DKP will be, in comparison, quite lackluster.

There's always the 'tough cookies thats the way the DKP fall' approach, but it just seems like another step could be taken to avoid that.

Anise · 05-29-2006, 11:24 AM

That's a good question Tarenth.. can't wait to read the answers.. especially when fights like that can help find mistakes to help make other fights run more smoothly.

**beep** · 05-29-2006, 12:02 PM

From WoWWiki...Shazzrah Strategy

Quote:

Shazzrah is usually pulled to Garr's room for an easier fight. The raid group is typically set up into 4 large groups that create a circle around Shazzrah. There should be at least one tank in each group, excluding the main tank.

Because of Shazzrah's AOE the only person in melee range should be the MT.

All rogues, warriors, etc should thus be using their ranged weapons. any attempts to melee Shazzrah will result in death.

The curse and self buff need to be dispelled as soon as possible. A Mage should cast Detect Magic on Shazzrah so the self buff is visible. Typically one person is assigned the sole or primary job of keeping Shazzrah's self buff dispelled, one person dedicated to keeping the MT dispelled, and one per each of the four groups dedicated to keeping their group dispelled.

When Shazzrah blinks the warrior whose group she teleports to should taunt her and run her back to the MT. This allows the main tank to stay in the center, otherwise she will run through the group and the AOE can quickly kill the entire group. It is also important that DPS stops and healing at a bare minimum until the tank regains agro.

This was the most successful of the approaches we tried. When done with a full group, it went quite well initially with the first few blinks maneuvered back to the MT. It seemed to fall apart when the group members scattered when Shazzrah blinked into one of the group.

Keys:

This fight is a lot like the Spider boss in ZG, although bigger.
The group warriors have to speedily taunt and run to the MT in the center.
The small groups must stay together.
If your group is "blinked" by Shazz, you MUST stop all DPS and healing to allow your warrior to move him back to the center where you'll be out of the AOE.
If your group gets Shazz's attention, you WILL take some AOE damage and may die. The other groups will be still in the hunt, though. This is group benefit, not individual benefit. Hard stuff!

I am as bummed as anyone about the lack of bosses taken down for the second night. Even so, here are some thoughts.
1. We MUST have a full 40 man raid at our current level of gearing. We aren't so uber (yet) as to think that the MC bosses are a walkover. Last night should prove this point. We might...just might...get by with 38...but NOT 35.
2. We seem to be chronically short of druids...and if this is going to be the case, then we have to add more healing capacity - priests and paladins to make up for this.
3. It WAS a holiday weekend with many of our regulars away for the holiday.
4. Several of the folks attending did NOT have decursive installed. You know who you are. Fix it! Others were missing CT Raid. This is not acceptable.
5. Our DKP system is based on loot, not attendance. This was a choice made early on in the selection process. It is a "flaw" (if you want that sort of phrasing) in the zero-sum system. You get nothing for attendance if there is no loot. You are not rewarded for the learning process without success. That's how it is. I'd love to get something other than a 10 gold repair bill (yes, that's right...10 gold

) for several hours of effort. This is the tough part of our growing as a guild. We just have to suck it up.

**Tarenth** · 05-29-2006, 03:57 PM

The alternative to using decursive (which, BTW, I never liked and never use) is to pull up groups or classes using the vanilla raid info provided to you by WoW. That's the 'raid' tab in your social box. You can set it up to show debuffs or buffs next to a person's name and I find it MUCH easier to use that when spot decursing. Of course you have to be willing to walk down a one way path to carpel tunnel syndrom as your fingers fly across the keys and have pretty fast reactions. Its not something I suggest to everyone though because it is a pretty attention dependent method and you will sacrifice much of your UI space watching people.

As another note I suppose I should point out that we have, as of yet, no official documentation of the current DKP rules to refer to. We get the jist of what is done, we have a summary of the rules, and we know what happens since it has been explained in teamspeak, but we have no posts or pages to refer to for the specifics and issues that are technicalities.

However, there is a passage in the old rules currently on the site (and woefully outdated) that mention a full run split between DKP accrued over the course of several days running a single instance (like MC, ZG, or AQ). I know when I brought it up on my second day running MC I got a lot of confused questions and outright denials of its exsistance, but it IS there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beep in "DKP - FAQ" on the SOP Forums

All DKP is awarded based on the whole timer?

This is largely inspired by ZG. The majority of the epics drop from Hakkar, and therefore Hakkar night would be a night where the majority of the DKP is earned (since we aren't counting blues). Yet, it takes getting down the 5 Aspects before you can fight Hakkar. And, not everyone can make it on Hakkar night. Similarly, as we learn new instances, there will be nights where there is lots of loot dropping (the bosses we have already learned) and nights where there is hardly any (when working on learning a new boss).
Rather than have each person's DKP depend on which nights during the timer they could attend, we thought it better to treat the timer as a single unit of accomplishment by the guild as a whole. Everyone that participated receives DKP based on what the guild accomplished during that timer. If you can only attend one night of ZG, it doesn't matter if it's Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, you get the same DKP.
For example, if we spent 3 days raiding ZG, and the value of the drops for the 3 days was 15, 55, and 20, then the value for the whole timer would be 90 DKP. If all 3 days consisted of 20 people raiding, each day of raiding would earn each person 90/60 = 1.5 points of DKP. If you were there all 3 days, then you earned 4.5 DKP. If you were there only one day, you earned 1.5 DKP, regardless of which day it was (compared to 0.75, 2.75, or 1 DKP depending on the day under a "by night" scheme).
We wanted everyone to focus on what the guild could accomplish during a timer, instead of which days gave the most DKP to attend. We think by-timer DKP accomplishes this.

I know with the current setup this would be VERY difficult to implement, but it could use a second looking. Maybe something could be carried over from the old rules to the new rules in order to, like Beep mentions, make sure the raiders on bad days walk away with something more than a large repair bill for their time and effort.

Sunderland · 05-29-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Now here's a question that I was wondering about:

Will something be done to compensate the people who went on the 5/29 raid for the crappy luck they had with the bosses when it comes to DKP?

You might want to consider granting "Attempt DKP". I can tell you this much, last friday when PoA was banging its head against a wall when time lapse and server lag spikes pwned us it was at the very least a nice consolation prize. Every boss attempt was 1 DKP, bosses that are downed only give 1 attempt DKP if they were not 1 shotted, bosses that are not downed give 1DKP per attempt. Just something to chew on!

Adrielle · 05-29-2006, 05:26 PM

Decursive has a lot of flaws in the Shazzrah fight. In fact, ... decursing in general (even without decursive) is tricky. In all honesty, I think that if you're a competent MANUAL decurser, it's better than decursive for the Shazzrah fight.

Those of you who use decursive probably know where I'm coming from. For the non-decursing classes, I will explain where the problem lies.

As it is, during the fight with Shazzrah you have to switch your priority list to include the groups that you are in, not priority of class. This is because my decursing spell has a 30 yard range and at the setup of the Shazzrah I can set up priority on my decursive to be the 2 groups that are bundled with me. Unfortunately, mid-battle when we are told to merge with other groups this is what the decursing class must do:

1. If it has not been said to us already, we must figure out what number groups we are merging with. So if I'm told to group up with the group to my right or left, I must figure out which two group numbers those are.

2. We must figure out if there is a live decursing class in the group we have just bunched with. If there is one, then it's not a big deal ... until they die.
If there isn't one ...

3. We have to go into our decursive priority list to add the two new groups we have formed with to the list (if we are using decursive) because if we don't, targets which are out of our range will block our list from decursing the ones who are close to us. In the world of 'mid-battle', ... that's very time consuming.

The other option is the manual decurse, which takes out the third step completely. With the global cooldown of spells, I have enough time to click on my next target before the cooldown is even up on my decurse (1s). And if I bunch together with another group, all I need to figure out is their group numbers, pull up the groups away from the rest of the raid, and start manually decursing. Just because I can't always use an add-on (given my computer situation) doesn't make me an incompetent decurser.

As far as the DKP system goes, it really sucks for my dad and I because since we pretty much always split raid attendance, we also split DKP. He and I have recieved loot the least recently of mages who regularly attend (out of those who have recieved loot at all) and we are still nearly the bottom two mages in DKP. Given, there are probably more variables involved and it would probably be that way no matter which DKP system was implemented. But I think everyone can agree that a trip to MC resulting in 1.4 DKP just plain sucks, ... even if it is something we have to 'just suck up' and take.

EDIT: I'm really not knocking the current DKP system, just venting my frustrations and suggesting we keep open minds about other possibilities.

**Vinzalf** · 05-29-2006, 07:42 PM

That's the way it goes. It's unfortunate but true.

We're not there yet, but when we can successfully take down domo, it will start adding up, probably even greater than the 'First Nights'.

There are consequences when the raid fails, as we did this past sunday. It's shown here in the amount of DKP accumulated for that run.

I feel bad that we can't give more, but here's how I see it, If we baby ourselves by bending the rules this time because we did not do as good as we wanted, it will be expected again. And again, and again. In the end, we're only doing it for the DKP from the first 5 bosses and not even caring about the rest. We need to keep fighting to take down the rest.

There IS, obviously a matter of luck involved with this system. However, Skill plays a bigger part of it. I know we did not have as much luck on Sunday. But I also know that we need to work on the skill too. The Skill of our classes, the skill of our leaders, the skill of our guild to have the numbers to be there, the skill of following directions. That's just a few of the skills required. Once we get the experience with the newer bosses, like we did with the old ones, which some of you may or may not remember, we'll succeed, and DKP will start coming in on both nights.

I'm sorry we diddn't get more DKP last night. I wanted more too, but I could see we were having problems, and though the problems weren't necessarily any single person's fault, the raid wasn't successful. No success, no loot, no loot, no DKP. Saturday it was taken for granted the loot would drop. The matter of success wasn't even factored into the equasion for most. Well, suprise, there it is, taunting us from just out of reach.

And on the topic of Crim and Addy. I understand the frustration here, but it's based on attendance during boss kills. If you're at fewer raids, theres fewer oportunities, and thus when the 'bad days' happen, and you're there, it doubles the damage.

"Attempt DKP" has no drawing point, thus it cannot be given with this system.

I'm really not trying to sound like a hard**s about this, but we have to hold our ground. Exceptions have no place in this system, nor should they exist in the raid.

If I had it my way, we would not have gone past Shazzrah until he was down. I think it added to the suffering to move on.

Adrielle · 05-29-2006, 09:04 PM

I agree about Shazzrah. I don't like skipping bosses. Shazz is probably the hardest fight besides Domo and Rag, ... if we get him down consistently, I have confidence we will take Sulfuron and Golemagg with few hangups.

It's frustrating to be learning bosses, ... especially having trouble on ones we've downed before. I would rather keep trying until we get it then to say "Screw it, let's move on".

05-28-2006, 12:29 AM	#1 (permalink)
Tonk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Luck, WI USA Age: 22 Posts: 3,026	shoulda brought my box how goes mc? lol __________________ -Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a beer in the other, body totally worn out screaming "YEEEHAW, WHAT A RIDE!!!" - my grandpa -My New Rig: cpu: AMD 6400+ 3.2ghz dual core mobo: Asus Crosshair ram: 8gb (4x2gb) geil exotera 4-4-4-12 video card MSI 8800GTS 512mb (g92) Vista:x64 Laptop: Dell i9300 2.16ghz-2gb ram-6800-17" 1920x1200 -Toasty/Tonk/Chair http://tgtonk.notlong.com

05-28-2006, 03:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
orion808 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Florida, US Age: 28 Posts: 2,348	Re: shoulda brought my box Had trouble with Shazz's AOE and then had respawn....but yeah, 5 one-shotted bosses before him. __________________

05-29-2006, 01:40 AM	#4 (permalink)
Tonk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Luck, WI USA Age: 22 Posts: 3,026	Re: shoulda brought my box wat bout sunday? kinda glad i dint bring my box with.. met Shawn Scott at my uncle's bar (stiffler from American Pie) =D __________________ -Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a beer in the other, body totally worn out screaming "YEEEHAW, WHAT A RIDE!!!" - my grandpa -My New Rig: cpu: AMD 6400+ 3.2ghz dual core mobo: Asus Crosshair ram: 8gb (4x2gb) geil exotera 4-4-4-12 video card MSI 8800GTS 512mb (g92) Vista:x64 Laptop: Dell i9300 2.16ghz-2gb ram-6800-17" 1920x1200 -Toasty/Tonk/Chair http://tgtonk.notlong.com

05-29-2006, 01:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
Vinzalf Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Age: 23 Posts: 1,760	Re: shoulda brought my box Tonight was le bad for TG in MC. To me it diddn't feel like everyone was totally into it like last night, then again, last night we plowed through all the ones we knew how to kill with hardly any effort. Theres two things we can try: 1.) Not being so good at the first 5 so we don't get totally humbled by the rest, or 2.) Keep plowing through the first 5 and keep going until we get it right. 1 is the slow and steady option, 2 is the rolling boulder option. __________________ RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!! Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows. I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

05-29-2006, 01:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tonk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Luck, WI USA Age: 22 Posts: 3,026	Re: shoulda brought my box uh... what bosses got downed??? __________________ -Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a beer in the other, body totally worn out screaming "YEEEHAW, WHAT A RIDE!!!" - my grandpa -My New Rig: cpu: AMD 6400+ 3.2ghz dual core mobo: Asus Crosshair ram: 8gb (4x2gb) geil exotera 4-4-4-12 video card MSI 8800GTS 512mb (g92) Vista:x64 Laptop: Dell i9300 2.16ghz-2gb ram-6800-17" 1920x1200 -Toasty/Tonk/Chair http://tgtonk.notlong.com Last edited by Tonk; 05-29-2006 at 02:42 AM.

05-29-2006, 05:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,199	Re: shoulda brought my box Ouch. Thats just...ow. In other news, since the PTB with the DKP site are VERY good about keeping things updated as things drop, you can check out what dropped on what day and make an educated guess on what was killed or not killed. Now here's a question that I was wondering about: Will something be done to compensate the people who went on the 5/29 raid for the crappy luck they had with the bosses when it comes to DKP? While a quick run through the bosses is a good thing for the guild, it kinda makes certain raid days seem more important for earning DKP than others. If every Saturday you one-shot 5 bosses, and every Sunday you maybe attempt 2-3 and get a kill or two then the people who make the Saturday run have an advantage over the people who run on Sunday. Of course as we get better at running MC and taking down bosses we'll start to consistantly kill things on both days. Yet again, as we get better geared and learn these encounters we will also kill the bosses much much faster. We may encounter a point in our raiding where we can kill all 8 bosses on Saturday leaving Sunday to killing Rags and Majordomo. While the loot from Rags and Majordomo are exceptionally good the DKP will be, in comparison, quite lackluster. There's always the 'tough cookies thats the way the DKP fall' approach, but it just seems like another step could be taken to avoid that. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

05-29-2006, 11:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
Anise Join Date: May 2006 Location: Washington State Posts: 29	Re: shoulda brought my box That's a good question Tarenth.. can't wait to read the answers.. especially when fights like that can help find mistakes to help make other fights run more smoothly.

05-29-2006, 05:26 PM	#13 (permalink)
Adrielle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Spencer, NY Age: 23 Posts: 745	Re: shoulda brought my box Decursive has a lot of flaws in the Shazzrah fight. In fact, ... decursing in general (even without decursive) is tricky. In all honesty, I think that if you're a competent MANUAL decurser, it's better than decursive for the Shazzrah fight. Those of you who use decursive probably know where I'm coming from. For the non-decursing classes, I will explain where the problem lies. As it is, during the fight with Shazzrah you have to switch your priority list to include the groups that you are in, not priority of class. This is because my decursing spell has a 30 yard range and at the setup of the Shazzrah I can set up priority on my decursive to be the 2 groups that are bundled with me. Unfortunately, mid-battle when we are told to merge with other groups this is what the decursing class must do: 1. If it has not been said to us already, we must figure out what number groups we are merging with. So if I'm told to group up with the group to my right or left, I must figure out which two group numbers those are. 2. We must figure out if there is a live decursing class in the group we have just bunched with. If there is one, then it's not a big deal ... until they die. If there isn't one ... 3. We have to go into our decursive priority list to add the two new groups we have formed with to the list (if we are using decursive) because if we don't, targets which are out of our range will block our list from decursing the ones who are close to us. In the world of 'mid-battle', ... that's very time consuming. The other option is the manual decurse, which takes out the third step completely. With the global cooldown of spells, I have enough time to click on my next target before the cooldown is even up on my decurse (1s). And if I bunch together with another group, all I need to figure out is their group numbers, pull up the groups away from the rest of the raid, and start manually decursing. Just because I can't always use an add-on (given my computer situation) doesn't make me an incompetent decurser. As far as the DKP system goes, it really sucks for my dad and I because since we pretty much always split raid attendance, we also split DKP. He and I have recieved loot the least recently of mages who regularly attend (out of those who have recieved loot at all) and we are still nearly the bottom two mages in DKP. Given, there are probably more variables involved and it would probably be that way no matter which DKP system was implemented. But I think everyone can agree that a trip to MC resulting in 1.4 DKP just plain sucks, ... even if it is something we have to 'just suck up' and take. EDIT: I'm really not knocking the current DKP system, just venting my frustrations and suggesting we keep open minds about other possibilities. __________________

05-29-2006, 07:42 PM	#14 (permalink)
Vinzalf Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Age: 23 Posts: 1,760	Re: shoulda brought my box That's the way it goes. It's unfortunate but true. We're not there yet, but when we can successfully take down domo, it will start adding up, probably even greater than the 'First Nights'. There are consequences when the raid fails, as we did this past sunday. It's shown here in the amount of DKP accumulated for that run. I feel bad that we can't give more, but here's how I see it, If we baby ourselves by bending the rules this time because we did not do as good as we wanted, it will be expected again. And again, and again. In the end, we're only doing it for the DKP from the first 5 bosses and not even caring about the rest. We need to keep fighting to take down the rest. There IS, obviously a matter of luck involved with this system. However, Skill plays a bigger part of it. I know we did not have as much luck on Sunday. But I also know that we need to work on the skill too. The Skill of our classes, the skill of our leaders, the skill of our guild to have the numbers to be there, the skill of following directions. That's just a few of the skills required. Once we get the experience with the newer bosses, like we did with the old ones, which some of you may or may not remember, we'll succeed, and DKP will start coming in on both nights. I'm sorry we diddn't get more DKP last night. I wanted more too, but I could see we were having problems, and though the problems weren't necessarily any single person's fault, the raid wasn't successful. No success, no loot, no loot, no DKP. Saturday it was taken for granted the loot would drop. The matter of success wasn't even factored into the equasion for most. Well, suprise, there it is, taunting us from just out of reach. And on the topic of Crim and Addy. I understand the frustration here, but it's based on attendance during boss kills. If you're at fewer raids, theres fewer oportunities, and thus when the 'bad days' happen, and you're there, it doubles the damage. "Attempt DKP" has no drawing point, thus it cannot be given with this system. I'm really not trying to sound like a hards about this, but we have to hold our ground. Exceptions have no place in this system, nor should they exist in the raid. If I had it my way, we would not have gone past Shazzrah until he was down. I think it added to the suffering to move on. __________________ RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!** Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows. I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

05-29-2006, 09:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
Adrielle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Spencer, NY Age: 23 Posts: 745	Re: shoulda brought my box I agree about Shazzrah. I don't like skipping bosses. Shazz is probably the hardest fight besides Domo and Rag, ... if we get him down consistently, I have confidence we will take Sulfuron and Golemagg with few hangups. It's frustrating to be learning bosses, ... especially having trouble on ones we've downed before. I would rather keep trying until we get it then to say "Screw it, let's move on". __________________

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