Re: Some observations on the Ragnaros fight

**Vinzalf** · 07-17-2006, 04:45 PM

All warriors, heed beep's message. I can maybe handle one Son of Flame as a rogue, with a healer on standby... but without Warriors, it's a futile effort, and with more than one Son, I'm literally toast.

I will take one if I know the Warriors are running low. We can't have that thought! it's not good for us.

**Pistos** · 07-17-2006, 05:20 PM

I know everyone gets frustrated and I wanted to apologize as well for being a bit cranky by the end of the night.

First off, Arkamis, thank you for leading the raid and thank you for pushing us through the trash mobs so quickly. I'm sure that leading a raid can be a bit of a chore when things aren't going as well as we all want them to go. I don't envy having to deal with everything that you, crebis, luna, chair (and whoever else i might be missing) have to deal with. The pacing was fast, but once we all get use to it we won't be having those little hiccups on trash mobs. And the tradeoff of getting through MC in two nights instead of three nights is more than worth it IMO. It gives us another day to do something else or chill or maybe play around with the Razor fight.

Second, the harder these fights get the more important it is to listen to what the RL is telling us to do. Whether we agree with strategies or not, whether we think something is crazy, it doesnt matter. In the heat of the battle we can't all be running around 40 individual players. The RL is the one directing us and we cannot run off doing our own thing. After the raid is the time to bring up strategies and discuss things not during the raid (which I am guilty of not doing - sorry Ark!).

As for the fight itself - if we can do Domo we can do Rag. Everyone getting their FR up is key, plus not being afraid to pop 3 or 4 fire pots during the fight. Whatever strategies we use we will be taking a pounding and hitting those pots as often as you can really helps. I usually hit 1 before the fight, and as soon as it goes away another, one as soon as sons start, and depending on mana at this point either take another fire pot or mana pot as soon as the timers up.

Most important, I want to say thanks to everyone. While last night didn't go as well as we want, I still had a good time. I really enjoy being a part of TG and I'm excited that everyone (even when they are bitching at each other) really want to see everyone else succeed - not for loot, but for the accomplishment of doing it. And Ark, I promise I won't be that big of a pain-in-the-*@! most of the time.

We'll see Rags down soon!!

**Arkamis** · 07-17-2006, 05:44 PM

Beep, thank you for your comments earlier. There is a great deal of frustration involved in a big boss fight. And there's a great deal of exhaustion involved, too.

You're exactly right in saying that we're going to struggle. We're going to struggle with Rags, we're going to struggle with Razorgore, and we're going to bang our heads against the wall with Vaelastrasz.

As the raid leader in many of these attempts, let me put out a plea to the raiding core.

First, please be respectful to one another during the raids. When I lead a raid, when I say the word "pull" I mean pull. I don't dress it up. If we're going to chat, please do so! But if while we're chatting you hear me say "pull" then be ready for the pull! We fight the same mobs in MC three times a week. Crebis and I both agree that we're not going to be holding everyone's hand anymore on how to take them down. If you're new to raiding, ask a class leader the specifics of the fight, or send the raid leader a tell if you have a major concern. Last night we went from first pull to Domo in 59 minutes, and that included the flaky "zomg everything coming in fours!" pull that I still have yet to understand (that was very likely a latency issue).

Second, pre- and post-boss fight is the time for silence, regardless of whether it is a successful drop or a wipe. If it's a tough fight, congratulations are in order, but then please allow us to move on with the more important things. Things that need to be said are issues regarding rezzing, looting, etc. Keep comms clear for that. Further, frequently I find myself attempting to explain what went wrong during a fight, yet this is how the conversation goes:

Player 1: "Wow that was bad!"
Player 2: "Yeah what wen't wrong there."
Me: "The problem wa..."
Player 3: "Yeah I don't understand what happened."
Player4: "Well I was having trouble finding range for heals."
Me: "Guys the fight went wrong when..."
Player 2: "Well I was teleported and lost line of sight."
Me (more loudly): "GUYS! SHH! EXPLAINING THE ERROR."

After a wipe, leave the comms clear for things pertaining to the fight. Often times I can see what went wrong, and can explain it. Just as frequently I am clueless and will attempt to ask others for their perspectives. But in order to get up and go again, we need to leave comments for afterwards.

Third, prepare yourself before we go. Repair. Get potions. Get reagents. If you have potions to give out, type it out. If you have class assignments to give out, use your class channels. If you are being asked a question in your class channel, RESPOND. This keeps things moving.

Fourth, have fun! Realize a few things, particularly when I'm raiding. First, I never yell at someone. I have several issues I deal with regarding comms, the first of which is I play on a laptop and frequently unplug my microphone or headset, the second of which is I sit in a living room less than six feet away from another WoW player who has no headset and is usually raiding while we are, and I have to speak and hear over his ventrilo output. If I cut out, it's because someone on his server has their outbound up so loud it pierces my ears even through headphones. Third, I mumble. So when I speak deliberately, it's not out of anger, it's literally me "speaking loudly enough so that everyone can hear me clearly." Fourth, I often have to speak over the issues addressed above.

Fifth, as I said last night: if you die, die silently. Unless it's critical, I don't need to hear if you've gone down. Unless you have a particular assignment (mage on sheep duty, tank, healer with a specific assignment) it's probably not critical. I can see who dies on my CTRA window. If you notice someone critical go down who *doesn't* have a mic, just say, "so-and-so down" and then let the raid leader redesignate the assignment to someone alive (or in my case, frequently to someone who's dead... "what do you mean you can't sheep while you're dead?!")

Lastly, please pay attention. I keep setup brief. I say things once. If you miss something, speak up in raid chat. I'll answer any questions. If I say "hug the right around the corner," hug the right around the corner. We all make mistakes, but those mistakes are avoidable by paying attention.

I above all am guilty of all of the above grievances. I will not hide that fact, and I understand the desire to chat a lot with peers. But make an effort to avoid it. It will keep things running a lot more smoothly, and if we wipe, it will only take us a third of the time to get up and get going.

**beep** · 07-17-2006, 05:45 PM

So what does FR gain you in the Ragnaros fight? Is it REALLY that important? YES!

First, you gain increasing damage mitigation. This is the typical 200 damage/500 resisted sort of message.

Second, you can AVOID the AOE knockback. This attack has a binary result...you resist it COMPLETELY or you take an Air Rag trip. It is FR that makes that calculation.

Since I have plenty of FR gear, and then take a Fire Protection Potion to boot...I usually don't get the knockback effect at all...or at most one during the first phase.

Think how much more effective we'll be when we are standing there instead of flying/healing/getting interrupted!!! Potions and FR buffs FTW!!!

**Tarenth** · 07-17-2006, 05:46 PM

I'll toss in some cents as well.

Guys and gals you CAN NOT go into these end fights short of anything but your very very best. I'm not talking about buffs and pots either, but how you are prepared mentally and emotionally.

I'm sorry to say this, but the ZG raid before MC may have been a very bad idea. If you had killed Hakkar it would've provided and nice buff and moral boost, but after wiping 4 times and giving up on him I could tell that tensions were high and moral was flagging low for the people who went.

No one takes failure very well and stacking so much on one day and failing was having a negative affect on people. After the second Domo wipe you could see the results as people who were on or around the ZG raid started to snap.

If we're going to be grinding out and working on Rags we need to take a moment to chill and go in with a clear mind and clear head. That way we can give it our best and honestly say at the end "We tried our hardest, we'll just have to try harder next time"

**Arkamis** · 07-17-2006, 05:49 PM

Hey, peeesto (=P) thanks for the comments. Trust me, your whispers ARE appreciated! I am short with responses because I cannot talk and type at the same time. Hell I can't even walk and chew gum! But I do take into consideration everything people tell me.

Often times people give me a very, very viable strategy that I deny on one basis and one basis alone: I know that what we're doing will work, and making major modifications halfway through the design can only lead to confusion and disaster. It's part of my training from engineering school. Do enough case studies of engineering nightmares and you'll see that 99% of the time, whether it was the game-breaking factor or not, something critical was changed mid-course and the effect never trickled down to the dependent secondary and tertiary components. Apollo 13 had a massive failure because halfway through the design they went to a 24-volt battery and they never changed the input voltage for the mixing system on the O2 tanks. Result: another Tom Hanks movie.

**Arkamis** · 07-17-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tarenth

I'll toss in some cents as well.

Guys and gals you CAN NOT go into these end fights short of anything but your very very best. I'm not talking about buffs and pots either, but how you are prepared mentally and emotionally.

I'm sorry to say this, but the ZG raid before MC may have been a very bad idea. If you had killed Hakkar it would've provided and nice buff and moral boost, but after wiping 4 times and giving up on him I could tell that tensions were high and moral was flagging low for the people who went.

No one takes failure very well and stacking so much on one day and failing was having a negative affect on people. After the second Domo wipe you could see the results as people who were on or around the ZG raid started to snap.

If we're going to be grinding out and working on Rags we need to take a moment to chill and go in with a clear mind and clear head. That way we can give it our best and honestly say at the end "We tried our hardest, we'll just have to try harder next time"

Maybe, but only about half of the people in the ZG raid, actually less, were in MC that night.

**Pistos** · 07-17-2006, 06:12 PM

No problem Ark. I justed wanted to make sure that I let you know. I don't want to be a stick-in-the-mud. I won't expect replies when I send whispers - I realize you have alot to take care of

. And in the future I'll refrain from strategy whispers until we're out of the raid.

I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to take down Rags (or any boss - I know there are multiple successful strats for every boss in MC). I'm sure doing it this way we were doing it will work eventually. Its a proven strat that's worked for others or else Hnk wouldn't have shown it to us. Of course that doesn't mean we can't make attempts different ways. I know when I'm working on programming something and get stuck usually coming at the problem from a different angle often does the trick right away.

But more important is that I think I have enough posts now to actually link sites - woo hoo.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Plate_Resist_List
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mail_Resist_List
http://www.wowwiki.com/Leather_Resist_List
http://www.wowwiki.com/Cloth_Resist_List
http://www.wowwiki.com/Misc_Resist_List

I know BRD has alot - esp. Lord Incendius. Farming BRD is fun, you like BRD - repeat until you believe this! Either way getting FR up like Beep talks about in posts above makes a huge difference in avoiding dmg and getting punted into the lava. Plus a stack of 5 fire pots per attempt - while expensive, really helps. (In the long run its cheaper than repairs).

**Muirc** · 07-17-2006, 06:21 PM

Lies, Pistos. I've run BRD many a times with you. Not once have you said you like BRD. :P No but on a serious note I know as a guild we can take this guy. We just have to better prepared! So get to farming some FR people.

**Pistos** · 07-17-2006, 06:44 PM

You caught me Muirc

. I know once people get done with Jailbreak they are like "Hells yea - i don't ever have to come here no mo'!". But its really not that bad, especially for a 5man thats got some MC gear. And there's alot of people that are in various stages of the Ony quests too. Plus you can run around do whatever you need to do - then just drop in on Lord Incendius.

And alot of times its personal preferences - i know i hated scholo for the longest time, but now its kinda fun. But no FR to be found there I imagine.

The other thing is going in more often to do trash mobs to get more firey cores and lava cores. The more of them we get the more gear we can make for people.

**Lurkz** · 07-17-2006, 06:54 PM

Just a quick follow-up on the Rag fight--some friends of mine in another guild on the server have MC down to about 3 hours in one night (including Rag). Of course, it sure helps that they have a lot of Tier 2 equipped people now!!! Regardless of Tier 2 though, I was explaining to them our fight and they were impressed that we were (and I'm quoting here) "moving our way through MC so quickly". In the beginning, they easily went a month of just beating their head against a wall with Rag--now he's chump change to them. We will get there

One final note--we talked through strat about the Rag fight; they use the same strat we do--with one exception: when they get to 20s remaining before Rag submerges, they call melee out--melee and range go to where the sons pop. Then, they have warriors group taunt them into a tight bunch where they tank and focus fire through all the Sons.

Great run Saturday night and a ton of fun; I was glad to be there and sorry I couldn't make it on Sunday evening for the follow-up

**Arkamis** · 07-17-2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Lurkz

Just a quick follow-up on the Rag fight--some friends of mine in another guild on the server have MC down to about 3 hours in one night (including Rag). Of course, it sure helps that they have a lot of Tier 2 equipped people now!!! Regardless of Tier 2 though, I was explaining to them our fight and they were impressed that we were (and I'm quoting here) "moving our way through MC so quickly". In the beginning, they easily went a month of just beating their head against a wall with Rag--now he's chump change to them. We will get there

One final note--we talked through strat about the Rag fight; they use the same strat we do--with one exception: when they get to 20s remaining before Rag submerges, they call melee out--melee and range go to where the sons pop. Then, they have warriors group taunt them into a tight bunch where they tank and focus fire through all the Sons.

Great run Saturday night and a ton of fun; I was glad to be there and sorry I couldn't make it on Sunday evening for the follow-up

That's exactly what we were supposed to do, fall back at 20s.

The 2nd attempt Saturday night was my fault. You need to do a /ragstart to get the warning on time if you wipe the first time around. I forgot to do that. Had I remembered, who knows...

**TG_Bear** · 07-17-2006, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lurkz

Just a quick follow-up on the Rag fight--some friends of mine in another guild on the server have MC down to about 3 hours in one night (including Rag). Of course, it sure helps that they have a lot of Tier 2 equipped people now!!! Regardless of Tier 2 though, I was explaining to them our fight and they were impressed that we were (and I'm quoting here) "moving our way through MC so quickly". In the beginning, they easily went a month of just beating their head against a wall with Rag--now he's chump change to them. We will get there

One final note--we talked through strat about the Rag fight; they use the same strat we do--with one exception: when they get to 20s remaining before Rag submerges, they call melee out--melee and range go to where the sons pop. Then, they have warriors group taunt them into a tight bunch where they tank and focus fire through all the Sons.

Great run Saturday night and a ton of fun; I was glad to be there and sorry I couldn't make it on Sunday evening for the follow-up

OMGZORS yes, melee needs to move out at about 20-30 secs before submerge to be ready for the Sons.

**Quarath** · 07-17-2006, 07:32 PM

As Far as Comms go can I recommend one possible help?

That is that when in combat we revert back to the GR days where

"DEAD MEN DON'T TALK"

out of combat you may be dead and some communication may be needed but in combat if your dead you are no longer part of the combat shut up unless you are asked to speak about where you are for a druid res or something. If your dead there is nothing you have to contribute for the duration of the fight.

**Sajier** · 07-18-2006, 11:44 AM

If people want to farm Incendius for Bracers, just let me know when, and I will be there. Ark and I have done this a bunch and I am more than willing to take a couple people and run it 5 or 6 times in about 30 mins. If we don't get gear people can use, they are quick shards for making Brilliant Wizard and Mana Oils for raids.

Just let me know, and I will be there.

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