Altor

You also need a good connection. Last time I went to BWL, I was DC'ed 2 times.

Hitchins

Razorgore and Vaelastrasz are all about strategy and implementation, we can do these 2 with the gear our current MC groups have. Broodlord requires ~5 tanks to be geared well. The drakes require 1 very geared tank and 39 on-the-ball people. Chromaggus requires 2-3 really geared tanks and the raid to be paying attention. Nef is just a time sink :P

Basically I'm trying to say, gear is important, but strategy and execution more so. I think we're there gear wise to do BWL, this will be my third guild to start BWL with, and all 3 had the same level of gear at this point. It's always been about getting 40 people to learn the strategy.

beep

(Taking a step back)...

I'm all for putting our best team into learning a new boss/new instance. I'm also very leery of creating an "elite" squad of players with the exclusion of others. It strikes me that this is a "matter of degree" and trying to act in a manner consistent with as much inclusiveness as common sense will allow.

I fully agree and endorse that any player should be adequately geared for the raid you want to join. We have been discussing at length in this thread what is adequate for MC (Tier 0 dungeon set or its equivalent...AND FR gear appropriate for your role). There IS a progression, and as the regular players get their Tier 1 gear, it means that the less regular, less experienced players effectively get their Tier 1 faster when they do raid.

It makes sense to me that BWL has a parallel track of gear required...most of your Tier 1 set plus even more FR.

One of our choices as a "casual end-game raiding guild" is that we take our raiding seriously but we also seek to have fun, to include as many players as possible and to create a setting where all can enjoy the end-game activities. Part of that choice is that we will NOT progress as fast as some other guilds because we ARE including the less-frequent players, thus lengthening our learning curve and gearing-up curve.

I want to move ahead as much as any guildie we have...and I get frustrated that we can't "do better...faster". AND I really like that we are a welcoming guild that includes players of all levels, abilities and gear. We support even casual players making it into end-game. The flip side of this is that if you are one of the casual players, you have to assume responsibility for gearing yourself with items appropriate to the raid you want to join. If you have any questions at all, please, PLEASE contact your class officer or the raid leader. We will give you our best advice as to what you need, where you can get it, etc. Believe me, the LAST thing I want to do as guild leader is to ask someone to step out of a raid because they aren't ready. I KNOW that we have officers and experienced players who will run the dungeons with you to help you get your gear to be ready for MC...but you have to have a plan and be willing to take the initiative to set something up. We can help, but we will not do it for you!

FWIW, the Knights Who Say Ni Guild have just started BWL. This weekend was their first "official" attempt. The were successful in taking down Razorgore (gratz to them!)...after a reported 20+ wipes!!! Now let's see, assume 12% wear and tear per wipe...that's around 2.5 times your complete gear set...for me that's around 50 gold....not counting potions, reagents, etc. That's boss number one.
It seems to me that we may be in for the same sort of learning experience...and that was with their better players! Get your gear together...get your attitude straight...come prepared to die while learning. Welcome to end-game!!!!

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Beep


Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

Hitchins

One thing I forgot to mention, I've seen alot of reference to FR gear for BWL, with the exception of our tanks, FR gear isn't important except for Vaelastrasz. On the other fights, if you aren't the tank and are getting hit by fire, you will most likely die since your healers will be very busy keeping those who should be taking damage alive. Bring lots of bandages to self heal! There are some very long fights in BWL, our first kill on the self healing drake will probably be over 30 minutes in length!

TG_Bear

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that we exclude anyone. Maybe rather than picking a top 5, the class leaders will be responsible for making sure that those in attendance are properly geared. I think realistically to run the 40 person instances you need about 60 well geared level 60's at all times. Scheduling, technical issues etc. always force at least 10 people out of every run. My point was that the 40 that go to BWL need to be decently geared.

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“Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

Altor

I don't think we should even seriously start BWL until Rags is on farm status. Of course, trying the first boss fight on an off night wouldn't be a bad thing.

beep

Agreed...and we know that learning a new boss fight is expensive, tiring, time-consuming and frustrating. I'm guessing that we will each spend more 100 gold learning how to defeat Razorgore.

Y'know, doing this with my guild friends is precisely why I like being in this guild...I can think of no better or more dedicated group to work with! Yay for TG!!!

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Beep


Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

Pistos

My only experience in BWL is Razor with one "look ma, no hands" shot at Vael. But the players we have are good enough to do it and the majority of people should be geared well enough. Having class leaders put together a list of where a person should be (armor, mana pool, whatever) is a good idea. But the biggest thing is we need everyone to pay attention and stay focused. It will take numerous attempts and I know we will all die horrible gruesome deaths but personally I'd much rather go in there with the intent of really trying it and taking it seriously. Lets discuss the strat before we go in since we have quite a few people that have done it. Come up with something that the RL is comfortable with. Do our prep work. Set the date to make a shot and have everyone sign up and get excited about it. Don't blow flasks and tons of pots, but go in with the idea that we are going to make 5 or 6 solid attempts at it. I don't mind dying and I don't mind a big repair bill as long as we're making headway and learning. Though 22 times in one night is a bit much for me - i'd have to go over to wetlands and commit genocide on the murlocs to get me in a better mood.

Honestly, I think we'll be able to do this before it gets to that level. Murlocs everywhere should be grateful.

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Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
...and other distractions of various levels.

Anah

Another response to Sajier - we are at a 0 sum dkp system, so just because you are not running MC right away does not mean you will be left behind by those who are. When somebody is ready to do MC (mostly blues, some FR) They jump into MC at 0dkp. That's a hell of a lot more than I have. With this system, newbies will jump into the middle of the system every time. A few classes have been unlucky with drops and are high in dkp, but that means there are a few classes who are very low, we can't have everybody high in this system, it is designed not to happen that way. I don't think this creates a 2 tier system, just a ladder progression through the levels that continues into endgame.

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Anahlahna and Friends

Arkamis

BWL is a balance issue. BWL does not require hard and heavy full tier-1 gear. However, it does require a balanced raid of people on the ball. I don't think we need to have rags on "farm" status any more than we already do to begin; however, we need to get a more balanced gearset throughout some of the players that will be joining us there. That means getting some people out of greens and blues and into their Tier 1 stuff.

What this may mean is that some people in certain classes who are already well-geared should probably consider who's in the raid, and if, for example, you're wearing a nice ZG blue waist and your class belt drops, maybe you should consider passing it to someone wearing a level 53 BOE green.

Rags will go down every week, I have no doubts about that. For those who haven't noticed, when I lead a raid I don't ever expect people to live; rather if the raid needs it, I'll expect someone to run up and die. We've done this on MC trash and AQ all the time (remember that I'm the one who usually sucks up those stinger packs when we get adds!) and it's necessary to keep the raid alive.

Just because we have 12 or 20 or 39 people die on a boss before killing it doesn't mean it's not a success. When we fight a boss, only one death is important: the boss's!

Altor

Good point about you dieing a lot in raids! :P

doofeey

I have always said that there is a natural progression to this addiction we call a game. The instances are basically set up with a natural flow... And the fact that you do not get all that you need in just 3 runs makes it quite clear that it is designed to make you practice (as well as hate it).

Getting back to the point... GEAR GEAR GEAR! YES, you do need your gear to do MC and BWL. I do not buy this notion that the guild is mostly geared for BWL. AND, if we have a large influx of new raid LEVEL blood, they should be geared properly before raiding.

Now, to many this may seem unfair. Okay... Those of us that have busted our humps to help the guild get where we are in raiding will not appreciate an undergeared peep snatching a raiding spot that we are geared to have. Going back to natural progresssion... Those that are geared will eventualy move along to other things while those that are geared and just need better will filter in... This makes the overall learning curve easier to deal with, gets people needed gear while not slighting those that have worked hard ALREADY to help everyone else and themselves get their gear and slowly teaches those that will be doing some leading later on what needs to be done. People learn their class places in these end game raids.

On that note... Running the smaller instances also makes the smart player learn his/her place in a group. Again, natural progression.

Those of us that have multiple 60s already know what to expect in an instance, BUT, that doesnt mean that you and yer additional level 60 know its role in a raid. Now, I know that might get on some folks nerves... get over it. Its the truth. For example, I've run UBRS on Doofeey over 100 times. When I went with Mandingodoof for the first time I was so nervous I'd screw up and cause a wipe. I asked questions of other locks that have run it over and over. I learned my place. It was a necessary evil.

On the flip side of that... Those of us with multiple 60s ONLY need to learn a particular classes role in raids and instanecs. We do not, obviously, need to learn the instance and what to expect... obviously. Therefore, why are more of us not grouping with fresh folks in instances and helping them along. THEY NEED TO REPLACE US eventualy. We the older generation, acnnot run MC, UBRS, BRD, LBRS, AQ, ZG forever. there are other things to discover and soon other worlds to explore. Now.. get ready nay sayers... BY HELPING THOSE LOWER IN LEVEL WE HELP OURSELVES.

Spare me the excuse that you were not paying attention to guild chat... That excuse only lasts but so long. And many have been caught becuase they have used that excuse over and over and the minute someone mentions certain places all of a sudden they are interested... You've been busted by the contridiction police. Now, dont get all defensive, you know who you are. and dont now make excuses here int his forum... Just understand and realize you are wrong for doing it.

WE'VE ALL had a helping hand along the way. And no, I'm not saying stop what you are doing to help someone run an instance. But if you are doing nothing as it is and a FAMILY MEMBER needs help, cant fill a pug, has made a few failed attempts, etc, just remember, that was you a while back.

And the officers of the guild that do it need to realy REALY be ashamed of themselves. You too know who you are.

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Lead, Follow or get out of my way

Tarenth

Okay...NO. This is kind of a vicious cycle of putting something off and making it harder in the long run. The only way to make Razorgore easier is to get as many people as possible into the instance to experience the encounter first hand. You know what happens then? You wipe. You wipe and wipe and keep wiping until people have seen what they need to see and know what they should and should not do from experience. Only then will you have people who know what to do and do it from experience than someone hesitating just long enough to get killed. I suggest putting one/two attempts if you do good on Ony and Rags after MC since it is the very first thing in BWL. Also, doing BWL on Sunday isn't a bad idea either. We'll see Razorgore down eventually, but I would like to see us doing it sooner rather than later.

Besides, 'later its too hard' was the same excuse I was given for the longest time for General Rajaxx and why we didn't do AQ20. You know what happened then? We eventually spent most of the day in there learning the encounter and then two shotted it the next day. The excuse didn't fly then, its not going to fly now.

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Arkamis

I'm not certain if it's a mod, an option or a stock setting, but my guild chat fades if that window is inactive for more than 60 seconds. I have to scroll back up to read anything, and I often miss MANY things because I have neither chat scroll buttons (I don't know where they went ) nor a mouse wheel. So scrolling chat is a major PITA for me. A lot of other people also have guild chat in a different window if they're partied or afk/dnd. So if I don't respond right away, or respond to something different, it's not because I'm ignoring anyone, but rather because I literally cannot see the last four lines of guild chat until someone else types something or I scroll it manually. I'm regularly afk for more than 60 seconds, as well.

I'm not singling anyone our here, but I've said before, I'm not encouraged to help people when they lay the guilt on me thick: "you won't help ME get MY gear, YOU'RE being selfish" is a line that does not sit well with me. Many people have given me that line (including some officers), and it just shuts me off entirely. I frequently respond better to, "hey ark, I could use a hand here, would you be able to help out?" Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Sometimes I'm too tired. Frequently I'm in tell hell. But it always elicits the best response.

And last, for the love of everything good, NEVER pressure a guildie into anything, whether it's staying in a raid or going on a run. I, for one, cannot stand it when I get the line, "aww come on, you're weak, stay in the raid, blah guilt blah." We ALL make too many sacrifices to accept that kind of behaviour from guildmates, so try to respect other people's RL needs, too.

Gambit7

Guys... I think we're gettin a bit too complex here. Why dont we just work within what we have and work to get our fellow guildies up to the level that they need to be?
I keep hearin "we need to get MC on farm status"... yet, THEN I hear we might need to exclude this person or that person based on gear? What's the point of farm-status if everyone is geared already?
Tier 0/.5 is a terrible thing in this game.. why? because almost every guild is end-game. You cant viably do it within a guild like this relying on PUGs. It's just not realistic. I continue to try to run scholo/strat/whatever and continually fail within the guild (just not finding people) and in PUGs. I also dont plan on spending 100's of GOLD just to upgrade from 0 to .5.
As far as ZG/AQ20, i agree, we need more people to get geared running these instances. But, guess what - my Tier 1 set drops mostly in MC! So, exactly how am I to get geared? Grinding rep seems the only viable way, which is why I grind a lot in Silithus and tend to try my absolust hardest to sneak into AQ20 raids. Now, grinding ZG is also smart - WHY??? Because it gives u pieces u cant get grinding Cen. hold. You get a ring, a cloak, and a blade in cen. hold. You get a bindings, headpiece, and a robe for zandalar.
This is above and beyond the normal drops from inside the instance - which try to fill in the blanks.

Anyways, this is how I hope to really get the gear I need - because honestly spending time lookin for PUGS (and wiping over and over), beggin guildies, and spending LOTS of gold foolin around with tier 0 and .5 is ludicrous.

I know more then anyone I need to get into ZG/AQ20 more, which is why u see me signed up all the time... alas, the scheduling is in conflict with RL right now - so it's tough. The most popular and easily attained Guild raid is of course MOLTEN CORE. So this instance I'm more inclined to end up gettin into.
Anyways, if it werent for havin to wait for resets it'd be so much easier to pull off these instances when we all have time for em.

One suggestion (and one I need to live by also): is if I cant make a GUILD ZG/AQA20 run, is simply to try and do it around the same time with another group. I've tried to latch onto other guilds for this purpose but alas have gotten nowhere... just gotta keep lookin and naggin. Also, we can run more then one raid for those who arent saved to the instance. Tough to plan but possible if u can fill spots from ur friend list.

So.. u've seen a few posts from me similar to this one; I just dont believe in beuracracizing guild-functions. It's just not fun and ends up gettin people into arguments. Let it be handled amongst the class-officers within the classes. Let the guild grow on its own, rather then skipping its current player-base and recruiting leet people. Winning is fun... but winning enjoyably is funner. Is funner a word?

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