Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. - Page 3

Altor · 08-01-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Okay...NO. This is kind of a vicious cycle of putting something off and making it harder in the long run. The only way to make Razorgore easier is to get as many people as possible into the instance to experience the encounter first hand. You know what happens then? You wipe. You wipe and wipe and keep wiping until people have seen what they need to see and know what they should and should not do from experience. Only then will you have people who know what to do and do it from experience than someone hesitating just long enough to get killed. I suggest putting one/two attempts if you do good on Ony and Rags after MC since it is the very first thing in BWL. Also, doing BWL on Sunday isn't a bad idea either. We'll see Razorgore down eventually, but I would like to see us doing it sooner rather than later.

Besides, 'later its too hard' was the same excuse I was given for the longest time for General Rajaxx and why we didn't do AQ20. You know what happened then? We eventually spent most of the day in there learning the encounter and then two shotted it the next day. The excuse didn't fly then, its not going to fly now.

I wasn't meaning it was too hard...I was saying that once we have Rags on farming status, that would be a pretty good bet that the raid, as a whole, will be properly geared for BWL. It is also the same reason I said we SHOULD do the first boss fight of BWL...To learn it.

Altor · 08-01-2006, 04:54 PM

Hey Doof...Tell us how you REALLY feel LOL

**TG_Bear** · 08-01-2006, 07:38 PM

Wow, I think the heat is getting everyone! After revewing the last three pages I think 3 things stand out.

1. No one is going to be excluded provided they do some work on their own and show up prepared.

2. Everyone should work on their Dungeon set if you don't have it already. Admittedly for many classes it's not great but more than likely it's better than what you're wearing.

3. We DO NOT, have Rag's on farm status. Killing a boss twice does not farm status make. Especially considering that we've wiped numerous times to get those two kills. Now last week we two shotted him so we're improving. The more we kill him, the better and stronger we'll get. To give you some perspective, my old guild on Blackhand was bringing Rag's down to 20% health in 3 minutes. Their goal now is to kill him before the sons even spawn. From my best estimate, we're 4-6 weeks behind them in total MC runs. What this means is that we have a LOT of MC and Ony runs in front of us. Every single piece of gear that drops makes us stronger as a team and stronger as a guild.

Think of the day when we have 40 people in Tier 1. Yes it's a ways off but that day will come.

Arkamis · 08-01-2006, 09:08 PM

Agreed, bear. Farming or not, I have no doubt we'll drop him every week. We have a good strategy, and good players, and a good network of people willing to help.

Guys. I've downed bosses all over BWL. You do not need to be full Tier 1 epiced to start BWL.

**Gambit7** · 08-02-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkamis

Agreed, bear. Farming or not, I have no doubt we'll drop him every week. We have a good strategy, and good players, and a good network of people willing to help.

Guys. I've downed bosses all over BWL. You do not need to be full Tier 1 epiced to start BWL.

Yes, as said when we did BWL the 1st time - it's total tactics.. which u can see from being in the fight. Yah, gear helps, but doesnt seem like it does as much as even MC. I tell ya though, I really liked that Razorgore fight, it truly is more of a team-effort... havin Ark or Crebis barking orders just isnt gonna be enough in there - you have to think on your feet. Matter of fact, I'd expect more chat on TS during the fight - which is something we'll have to moderate I suppose, nevertheless it's gonna be needed as there's too much goin on at once for 1 player to be able to monitor.

**Gambit7** · 08-02-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TG_Bear

Wow, I think the heat is getting everyone! After revewing the last three pages I think 3 things stand out.

1. No one is going to be excluded provided they do some work on their own and show up prepared.

2. Everyone should work on their Dungeon set if you don't have it already. Admittedly for many classes it's not great but more than likely it's better than what you're wearing.

3. We DO NOT, have Rag's on farm status. Killing a boss twice does not farm status make. Especially considering that we've wiped numerous times to get those two kills. Now last week we two shotted him so we're improving. The more we kill him, the better and stronger we'll get. To give you some perspective, my old guild on Blackhand was bringing Rag's down to 20% health in 3 minutes. Their goal now is to kill him before the sons even spawn. From my best estimate, we're 4-6 weeks behind them in total MC runs. What this means is that we have a LOT of MC and Ony runs in front of us. Every single piece of gear that drops makes us stronger as a team and stronger as a guild.

Think of the day when we have 40 people in Tier 1. Yes it's a ways off but that day will come.

Agreed, but like I said before - farm status with everyone already in Tier 1 or better (I've seen people in tier 2 in MC) is not really farm status. What exactly are you farmin? This is where it's tricky for the officers in my eyes, where they have to make sure there are a good balance of geared players to non-geared, so we dont end up DEing everything or wiping excessively.

It's really gratifying going "comfortably" through a raid and REALLY seeing a lot of toons get seriously improved. Going through quickly is nice and all, but I dont think paramount.

I'll give ya another example from another game- Dungeons and Dragons Online. I used to take TG through a particular zone UBER-fast (because it was extremely long and repetitive), yah.. it was great to save time and get everyone geared up fast, but in the end I got yelled at because the group was missing content and it just wasnt fun to them (yah you Vinzalf), not to mention the xp was nerfed. Most of the group was also really high lvl- to get through more easily, so no real tactics and we ended up just draggin along 1 or 2 toons to get them gear.

As usual, a balancing act. This is where we musnt neglect the HARDER instances, like BWL. Yah "we're a ways away". But if you dont stick ur head into this content you quickly become desensitized and that leads to loss of player-base... i.e. they get bored.

Also got to try not to get caught in the assumption that everything must be easy or it's not worth doing. A few people I've seen fall into this category, tanks especially. They think if they have to spend gold on armor, wipe a few times, have to actually WORK to finish a raid that it's all over and not worth doing. What kind of gaming is this?? Where's the tacticalgamer in that?

Anyways, it'll all hash out well in the long run. Just keep laughin it up and havin fun, all the while bein productive. Remember, end-game really only begins with Lashslayer's head on a stick (just my opinion, when ur respected by Dragon Aspects uve basically reached the end)... and by the time this even happens, we'll probably be real close to expansion - plenty of game in this game... our timing is perfect it seems.

Arkamis · 08-03-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambit7

Yes, as said when we did BWL the 1st time - it's total tactics.. which u can see from being in the fight. Yah, gear helps, but doesnt seem like it does as much as even MC. I tell ya though, I really liked that Razorgore fight, it truly is more of a team-effort... havin Ark or Crebis barking orders just isnt gonna be enough in there - you have to think on your feet. Matter of fact, I'd expect more chat on TS during the fight - which is something we'll have to moderate I suppose, nevertheless it's gonna be needed as there's too much goin on at once for 1 player to be able to monitor.

Actually, I'd prefer the razorgore attempt SILENT because not only will I be controlling razorgore, but either crebis or I will have to be monitoring four separate groups (one per each corner) simultaneously for healing, dps, etc. and reallocating resources as necessary.

**Gambit7** · 08-04-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkamis

Actually, I'd prefer the razorgore attempt SILENT because not only will I be controlling razorgore, but either crebis or I will have to be monitoring four separate groups (one per each corner) simultaneously for healing, dps, etc. and reallocating resources as necessary.

Well yah, if the BOTH of you are monitoring that's something different. But all by your lonesome I dont envy your job. Also, it's hard to run and talk at the same time isnt it?

Maybe it could be moderated so there's one group leader ONLY per group able to speak.

SxyVixen · 08-04-2006, 05:37 PM

Arkamis, Why not appoint one person from each of the four groups to let you know where DPS, healing, etc sits at. Where they are lacking, and where they have more than enough? That way you can play as well direct the run. DELEGATION, it's a beautiful thing

Arkamis · 08-05-2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxyVixen

Arkamis, Why not appoint one person from each of the four groups to let you know where DPS, healing, etc sits at. Where they are lacking, and where they have more than enough? That way you can play as well direct the run. DELEGATION, it's a beautiful thing

That's what will need to get done, but first we need to train people on the fight. The last thing you want is someone getting overexited and going "OMG I HAVE DRAGONKIN OMG" when it's totally handleable.

Razorgore needs to be instinctive.

SxyVixen · 08-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkamis

That's what will need to get done, but first we need to train people on the fight. The last thing you want is someone getting overexited and going "OMG I HAVE DRAGONKIN OMG" when it's totally handleable.

Razorgore needs to be instinctive.

Oh, I most definitely agree with you there!

doofeey · 08-09-2006, 02:41 PM

I totaly agree that until we get BWL done a few times, we need to do it in a moderated TS fashion. its hard enough hearding cats, but to do so when they are meowing all over the place is darn near impossible.

**Gambit7** · 08-09-2006, 03:13 PM

A lot of this simply has to do with "gaming etiquette" and experience. Problem with WoW is a lot of people in it arent real familiar with games that TS was made for, which is FPS. Then again, FPS players are a LOT more vocal then we tend to be ALLOWED in WoW (myself included).

I'm one that believes that without communication comes failure. I know I tend to talk more then others on TS, even people who I figured would/should be more vocal (many officers dont speak when they SHOULD). But, I also take great care in choosing when to speak.

There ARE times when an important piece of info. comes out and the person talking gets shot-down for even speaking in TS. This is wrong I believe and just adds to the comm-chatter and confusion on TS. If someone is overly-rambunctious that's another thing. If not, save it for later.

I'll give an example:
The last Ony kill we had the whelps come in force on one side after much of our force was depleted. DPS on Ony was important at the time and we had whelp groups in place. I stole a glance over there and it didnt seem a problem, yet... until Luna piped up "oh man, that's a lot of whelps" and Bear came on comms and went over to tank, realizing the whelp groups were depleted- I ran over and immediately started AOEing, also realizing I was the last mage up... so I got on comms for immediate mage-heals. Three things happened there; Luna directed attention, Bear signified his intention to tank them - meaning I didnt have to run in immediately and SACRIFICE myself, and my asking for mage-heals if available so I could be in place long enough to AOE them all down. These 3 comms were important to achieving a quick response. One man cant read the minds of 40 people. and you cant assume people will "automatically" know what to do, leader included. Had anyone in the comm-chain stood around waiting for the Leader to delegate it's possible the whelps wouldve made it to the main tank. Of course, we got a smack on the wrist (no harm done) for talking... but then later got congratulated for good improvisation. Kind of an oxymoron.

I dont know about you guys, but I'd much rather have a bit more chatter and a succesful Raid then a cool/calm/collect one and we're DEAD. In order to remain LOOSE and Improvisational we're gonna have to speak properly on TS - that doesnt mean 1 or 2 people only. By loose I simply mean every once and a while speak candidly or crackin a few jokes on TS, shouldnt be all anal on TS - that makes it un-fun and people many times tend to make more mistakes because they play "tight".

Real improvisation is only gonna work with active chatter... wont work with 1 person. Plain and simple. If we want to do more one-times and be able to finish Raids (like BWL) that we're not familiar with, that's what's gonna have to happen. If we want to wipe repeatedly and take a month or 2 to get familiar with a fight, then hey, 1 person is fine.

This is a responsiblity everyone must endure. The solution is not simply ample-moderation. Battle-comms is a skill not on your char. sheet. Let's all learn.

doofeey · 08-09-2006, 03:33 PM

Being someone in that raid you are speaking of and rememberring the instance, you are correct... THAT was a time when communication was necessary. and it was done soe effectively.

HOWEVER, when people are talking about all kinds of other crap that is not connected to the raid, its annoying and unnecessary.

And, as far as ettiquette is concerned... its just plain simple common courtesy NOT to talk over someone else when they are speaking. Many of you have yet to learn this... No matter what you feel about what the person is saying, you shouldnt try and out talk them or step on what they are saying with your own words... what it does is make it so that NOBODY is clearly heard. yes, it has hapenned where you think someone is finished, so you start talking and then the person continues... thats diff. But when a person is in mid word and you start yapping... c'mon folks... lets be adults... hopefuly those with children teach them bettter manners than that.

The only people that need to be heard in a raid are thsoe leading it. I dont fully agree that all officers need to have talking rights sim-ly becuase they are officers... becuase it is some officers that are causing a lot of the unnecessary yammerring in the first place. the only ones we NEED to hear are the raid leaders, class leaders that need to communicate to their classes and raid leader and MAYBE in certain cases others that need to be heard for particular pull/event. Thats it.

Pistos · 08-09-2006, 04:27 PM

I love chatting it up on comms, telling jokes, talking about which mob to kill first, talking about how mob shoulda just walked away, but all thats in a 5man

.

I'm all for us being loose and having fun. This is a game after all. But we have quite a few people that talk WAY too much as it is. If people do their jobs fights go well. The RLs we have can direct traffic, shout out battle rezs or whatever. Its when the 39 other people start all talking at once and we start running around doing different things that people lose their head and OMG someone's next to Ony's tail and bam into the welp cave.

I'm not saying we need to blast people for talking on comms. The example stated a couple posts up is a pretty good case of one person saying "we're gonna need a little extra help", and a couple people coming to help. Thats a damn good use in my book. And if its handled quickly then it prevents the "abuse" of alot of people yelling.

As long as the raid keeps moving then I'm fine with the random chit-chat. But we don't need everyone calling out "I just died!!". There may be a few crucial individuals depending on the fight, but for the most part its not something that anyone can do much about at the current moment anyway.

I'm just curious, but why do you think having the raid leader only directing will slow us down learning a new fight? Like Razor, I'd like to see some discussion on strategy, even on TS *before* or *after* the raid, but I'm not sure that a whole bunch of people talking back and forth while we deal with the chaos of 100 or so mobs trying to smash our brains in will help.

08-01-2006, 04:54 PM	#32 (permalink)
Altor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 439	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. Hey Doof...Tell us how you REALLY feel LOL

08-01-2006, 07:38 PM	#33 (permalink)
TG_Bear Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Syracuse, NY Age: 42 Posts: 504	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. Wow, I think the heat is getting everyone! After revewing the last three pages I think 3 things stand out. 1. No one is going to be excluded provided they do some work on their own and show up prepared. 2. Everyone should work on their Dungeon set if you don't have it already. Admittedly for many classes it's not great but more than likely it's better than what you're wearing. 3. We DO NOT, have Rag's on farm status. Killing a boss twice does not farm status make. Especially considering that we've wiped numerous times to get those two kills. Now last week we two shotted him so we're improving. The more we kill him, the better and stronger we'll get. To give you some perspective, my old guild on Blackhand was bringing Rag's down to 20% health in 3 minutes. Their goal now is to kill him before the sons even spawn. From my best estimate, we're 4-6 weeks behind them in total MC runs. What this means is that we have a LOT of MC and Ony runs in front of us. Every single piece of gear that drops makes us stronger as a team and stronger as a guild. Think of the day when we have 40 people in Tier 1. Yes it's a ways off but that day will come. __________________ “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

08-01-2006, 09:08 PM	#34 (permalink)
Arkamis Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 597	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. Agreed, bear. Farming or not, I have no doubt we'll drop him every week. We have a good strategy, and good players, and a good network of people willing to help. Guys. I've downed bosses all over BWL. You do not need to be full Tier 1 epiced to start BWL.

08-04-2006, 05:37 PM	#39 (permalink)
SxyVixen Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver, CO Age: 27 Posts: 24	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. Arkamis, Why not appoint one person from each of the four groups to let you know where DPS, healing, etc sits at. Where they are lacking, and where they have more than enough? That way you can play as well direct the run. DELEGATION, it's a beautiful thing __________________ ______________________ "Go suck an elf!" "Makin' Paws Look Hawt!"

08-09-2006, 02:41 PM	#42 (permalink)
doofeey Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Brunswick, NJ Age: 43 Posts: 168	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. I totaly agree that until we get BWL done a few times, we need to do it in a moderated TS fashion. its hard enough hearding cats, but to do so when they are meowing all over the place is darn near impossible. __________________ Lead, Follow or get out of my way

08-09-2006, 03:13 PM	#43 (permalink)
Gambit7 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Hollywood, FL Age: 32 Posts: 2,198	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. A lot of this simply has to do with "gaming etiquette" and experience. Problem with WoW is a lot of people in it arent real familiar with games that TS was made for, which is FPS. Then again, FPS players are a LOT more vocal then we tend to be ALLOWED in WoW (myself included). I'm one that believes that without communication comes failure. I know I tend to talk more then others on TS, even people who I figured would/should be more vocal (many officers dont speak when they SHOULD). But, I also take great care in choosing when to speak. There ARE times when an important piece of info. comes out and the person talking gets shot-down for even speaking in TS. This is wrong I believe and just adds to the comm-chatter and confusion on TS. If someone is overly-rambunctious that's another thing. If not, save it for later. I'll give an example: The last Ony kill we had the whelps come in force on one side after much of our force was depleted. DPS on Ony was important at the time and we had whelp groups in place. I stole a glance over there and it didnt seem a problem, yet... until Luna piped up "oh man, that's a lot of whelps" and Bear came on comms and went over to tank, realizing the whelp groups were depleted- I ran over and immediately started AOEing, also realizing I was the last mage up... so I got on comms for immediate mage-heals. Three things happened there; Luna directed attention, Bear signified his intention to tank them - meaning I didnt have to run in immediately and SACRIFICE myself, and my asking for mage-heals if available so I could be in place long enough to AOE them all down. These 3 comms were important to achieving a quick response. One man cant read the minds of 40 people. and you cant assume people will "automatically" know what to do, leader included. Had anyone in the comm-chain stood around waiting for the Leader to delegate it's possible the whelps wouldve made it to the main tank. Of course, we got a smack on the wrist (no harm done) for talking... but then later got congratulated for good improvisation. Kind of an oxymoron. I dont know about you guys, but I'd much rather have a bit more chatter and a succesful Raid then a cool/calm/collect one and we're DEAD. In order to remain LOOSE and Improvisational we're gonna have to speak properly on TS - that doesnt mean 1 or 2 people only. By loose I simply mean every once and a while speak candidly or crackin a few jokes on TS, shouldnt be all anal on TS - that makes it un-fun and people many times tend to make more mistakes because they play "tight". Real improvisation is only gonna work with active chatter... wont work with 1 person. Plain and simple. If we want to do more one-times and be able to finish Raids (like BWL) that we're not familiar with, that's what's gonna have to happen. If we want to wipe repeatedly and take a month or 2 to get familiar with a fight, then hey, 1 person is fine. This is a responsiblity everyone must endure. The solution is not simply ample-moderation. Battle-comms is a skill not on your char. sheet. Let's all learn. __________________

08-09-2006, 03:33 PM	#44 (permalink)
doofeey Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Brunswick, NJ Age: 43 Posts: 168	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. Being someone in that raid you are speaking of and rememberring the instance, you are correct... THAT was a time when communication was necessary. and it was done soe effectively. HOWEVER, when people are talking about all kinds of other crap that is not connected to the raid, its annoying and unnecessary. And, as far as ettiquette is concerned... its just plain simple common courtesy NOT to talk over someone else when they are speaking. Many of you have yet to learn this... No matter what you feel about what the person is saying, you shouldnt try and out talk them or step on what they are saying with your own words... what it does is make it so that NOBODY is clearly heard. yes, it has hapenned where you think someone is finished, so you start talking and then the person continues... thats diff. But when a person is in mid word and you start yapping... c'mon folks... lets be adults... hopefuly those with children teach them bettter manners than that. The only people that need to be heard in a raid are thsoe leading it. I dont fully agree that all officers need to have talking rights sim-ly becuase they are officers... becuase it is some officers that are causing a lot of the unnecessary yammerring in the first place. the only ones we NEED to hear are the raid leaders, class leaders that need to communicate to their classes and raid leader and MAYBE in certain cases others that need to be heard for particular pull/event. Thats it. __________________ Lead, Follow or get out of my way

08-09-2006, 04:27 PM	#45 (permalink)
Pistos Join Date: May 2006 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 36 Posts: 1,040	Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up. I love chatting it up on comms, telling jokes, talking about which mob to kill first, talking about how mob shoulda just walked away, but all thats in a 5man . I'm all for us being loose and having fun. This is a game after all. But we have quite a few people that talk WAY too much as it is. If people do their jobs fights go well. The RLs we have can direct traffic, shout out battle rezs or whatever. Its when the 39 other people start all talking at once and we start running around doing different things that people lose their head and OMG someone's next to Ony's tail and bam into the welp cave. I'm not saying we need to blast people for talking on comms. The example stated a couple posts up is a pretty good case of one person saying "we're gonna need a little extra help", and a couple people coming to help. Thats a damn good use in my book. And if its handled quickly then it prevents the "abuse" of alot of people yelling. As long as the raid keeps moving then I'm fine with the random chit-chat. But we don't need everyone calling out "I just died!!". There may be a few crucial individuals depending on the fight, but for the most part its not something that anyone can do much about at the current moment anyway. I'm just curious, but why do you think having the raid leader only directing will slow us down learning a new fight? Like Razor, I'd like to see some discussion on strategy, even on TS before or after the raid, but I'm not sure that a whole bunch of people talking back and forth while we deal with the chaos of 100 or so mobs trying to smash our brains in will help. __________________ Gigan - Shaman (Resto) Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest ...and other distractions of various levels.

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