Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

**luna** · 08-14-2006, 09:09 PM

Manny, well said.

We are always happy to see new ideas floating around. We would be well served to get a little better at communicating why an idea is accepted or rejected. I'll make note of that.

Regarding the rolling for spots- I spoke to Crebis and a few other officers in this regard. I initially thought a solution would be to put the raids up on the schedule at a predictable time, but have since come to feel that isn't the best idea. By putting the raids up at less predictable times, we are able to randomize who can come along. If I put the raids up at the same time every week, the same 40 people would be able to make it, and the other 20 or so would be unable to sign up first.

I think keeping it as FCFS means people need to stay in touch with the guild and stay on top of things. I think it encourages people to log onto the site and see what's going on throughout the week, instead of the one day a week we plan to put the raids up.

**Pistos** · 08-14-2006, 09:11 PM

I love these discussions

...

But Manny, doesn't the new person get the benefit of raiding MC in one night all the way through next to geared up people that know the strategies instead of learning the fights over months (going Fri, Sat, Sun for many weeks) slowly gearing up for each step along the way? Plus, since most everyone else already has the gear new people are going to be geared up very quickly. Getting 8/8 Lawbringer might just be a matter of as it drops instead of one piece, waiting 3 weeks to climb the list, another piece, etc. Sure they are in the hole, but its a much shorter amount of time - both # of raids and total amount of raiding time.

**Manny** · 08-14-2006, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pistos

so it just encourages people NOT to go once they get theirs. I don't want people to quit going to MC once they get their gear. Same with Ony.

This is pretty much what happened in Reverent recently. but they'd been farming MC once a week for an entire year.

Keep in mind, people who might feel that way...

As people leave the guild, and join the guild, you're going to NEED to keep the new people outfitted. Take it from Manny, AKA "Mr.3/8Soulforge 3/8 Lawbringer and assorted blue trinkets/necks/rings in BWL."
BWL is NOT fun when you spend most of your time chewing on the floor tiles. Yeah MC will get to be a chore... but it's a necessary one. I'm not saying run it countless times to get one person gear, but you should definately go until at least 3/4's of the stuff from 3 or 4 runs gets DE'd.

Just a thought.

**Manny** · 08-14-2006, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pistos

I love these discussions

...

But Manny, doesn't the new person get the benefit of raiding MC in one night all the way through next to geared up people that know the strategies instead of learning the fights over months (going Fri, Sat, Sun for many weeks) slowly gearing up for each step along the way? Plus, since most everyone else already has the gear new people are going to be geared up very quickly. Getting 8/8 Lawbringer might just be a matter of as it drops instead of one piece, waiting 3 weeks to climb the list, another piece, etc. Sure they are in the hole, but its a much shorter amount of time - both # of raids and total amount of raiding time.

Yeah, They DO get that benefit. but let me put it this way...
Blizzards random engine sucks.

I'm one of those people that got the one night drag through MC for gear... And after almost an entire month in Reverent, i STILL only had the 3 pieces of Lawbringer that i went to them with. Now, imagine if Rev used Zero sum... Yeah, i would've gotten dkp for all the freaking Nightslayer that i'd seen drop, but say an aurastone hammer had dropped... and it was monumentally better than my weapon, but another paladin/drood in the guild decided that they could use it on top of their other weapon...
Greed IS a factor here. i know it never seems like it, but some people get HELLA greedy right off the bat.

And, don't forget, you're getting DKP when that paladin get's the one night drag.... Everything comes out even in the wash

DKP swell is a really horirble thing. Some guilds, which shall remain nameless, have horrible swell.. members gain more DKP in one run than they could possibly spend... new people coming lose DKP on stuff that they get, but can't ever catch up to the guildies that have run MC once or twice without actually getting any gear. and when they start doing new instances with the guild, they don't even have a chance to gear up until everybody ahead of them gets stuff.
your guy's system at the moment is the best for equality... everybody will gear up evenly... It might not get some people geared as quickly as they want to be, but that shouldn't matter... It takes a bit of 'sucking it up princess', but in the end, it's better for the raid.

**Pistos** · 08-14-2006, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Manetheren

Yeah, They DO get that benefit. but let me put it this way...
Blizzards random engine sucks.

I'm one of those people that got the one night drag through MC for gear... And after almost an entire month in Reverent, i STILL only had the 3 pieces of Lawbringer that i went to them with. Now, imagine if Rev used Zero sum... Yeah, i would've gotten dkp for all the freaking Nightslayer that i'd seen drop, but say an aurastone hammer had dropped... and it was monumentally better than my weapon, but another paladin/drood in the guild decided that they could use it on top of their other weapon...
Greed IS a factor here. i know it never seems like it, but some people get HELLA greedy right off the bat.

And, don't forget, you're getting DKP when that paladin get's the one night drag.... Everything comes out even in the wash

I can definitely see the downside of DKP swell, but the pally thats been bouncing through MC for months and months and months probably should have the first crack at the aurastone hammer over someone new.

I've seen people get what their toon needed out of somewhere and not want to go back. It happens at all levels and all instances. And while in theory keeping new people geared is a great "carrot on a stick" I wonder how effective it will be in practice. I think that's a scarier proposition than having a bunch of people with a ton of dkp and nothing to spend it on. The new people just get geared by default. Sure it may take some time for blizzard's random generator to drop the damn stuff but the new people generate dkp. And even with our system (assuming no dkp for de'd items) a new person that is getting geared up "by default" is going to end up in a GIANT hole either way. They may not get the great weapon right away, but I don't see that as a problem...

**Haletma** · 08-15-2006, 02:53 PM

The only problem I have with some folks that get their gear and keep going on MC, does that class have someone that doesn't get the chance to always go on runs and missing several pieces. I stay this because we have some folks who camp the raid sign ups on occasions. Need to rotate people out who have full gear for those that need drops IMHO and I know there's a big hoopla going on about mains/alts, but there are some alts who have to be used on a regular basic that should be outfitted as well. Those that come to mind Candrice, Beepster, Talara, Anah, Hilda, Silchar and I know of a few others.
I say this because we have a tough time or had a tough time with a balanced raid, so folks would switch to alts to help balance. And if they are willing to do that then they should be equipped as good as the rest of the raid, just my personnal oppinion(OH! also folks I have no 60 alts, because I prefer playing a priest all the time, but I do have alts I play from time to time, mainly to learn stuff about other classes).

I also wanted to let everyone know that didn't know this, I can understand COMPLETELY why Altor got mad last night, he wanted to bring Gundola because he was trying to get the rep up on him for tradeskill stuff that can be helpful to us later for AQ40 runs. Key thing I've been seeing lately folks, we all need to think or ask questions without being condacending when we ask them, sometimes there is a very good reason why a certain person needs to be on an alt for a particular raid we are doing. I know I'm still trying to get ZG rep for the exalted potion recipe and CH rep for the rep reward armor pieces.

**Anah** · 08-15-2006, 03:37 PM

If the bank were to become the 41st person in the raid, we all would earn less dkp for stuff that is being bid on. It would be a place to store boe stuff, but we still would have to de bop stuff, since there is no real bank toon in the raid to loot to. In the end we would get less dkp because we distribute more loot to the party than we bank or de.

**Gambit7** · 08-15-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pistos

... Repair bill money isn't that big of a deal, but the time is. And while you didn't go down in the list you didn't go up (in relation to those that were on an alt or farming or not in game at all)... so it just encourages people NOT to go once they get theirs. I don't want people to quit going to MC once they get their gear. Same with Ony.

LOL
If you have to be DRAGGED into MC then you might as well quit the guild.
Once MC IS on farm-status, i.e. one-nighters.. then it's not too much to ask for people to show up regardless of loot or DKP. Lootwise, class-leaders should just try their best to make sure loot is allocated. Otherwise, so what? we DE for nice crystals. Big deal. If the geared people were smart, they'd simply stick with the formula and use MC to gather DKP at the expense of lesser geared people, making sure the latter occured. This DKP is then used in other areas like ONY/BWL/AQ40, etc. Rinse, wash, repeat.

How many nights have I and others sat in AQ or ZG and gotten NOTHING really but some rep? And btw, u DO get rep for being in MC also.

Lastly, the lure of gear has pulled away many a guildie. But rest assured, there are other guildies ready to take their place. If someone decides they dont want to run MC 'cause they're geared already, then I'm sure one of the other 100+ accounts can take his slot.

Ideally this geared person, being in a position of power, would help coordinate an adequate replacement rather then just not showing up or dipping out completely.

**Pistos** · 08-15-2006, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Anah

If the bank were to become the 41st person in the raid, we all would earn less dkp for stuff that is being bid on. It would be a place to store boe stuff, but we still would have to de bop stuff, since there is no real bank toon in the raid to loot to. In the end we would get less dkp because we distribute more loot to the party than we bank or de.

Unfortunately that's not true once you take only a couple items out of the DKP pool. For example assume future runs would have the same item value as last week's MC run:

Total DKP value of items taken: 1038
Assuming a full raid of 40 people: 25.95 (1038/40) (last week was slightly higher - 26.88 since there were not a full 40 for some of the boss kills)

If you add a 41st DKP taking person to the raid (bank) each person would have gotten: 25.32 instead of 25.95 (1038/41).... this is only a .63 difference.

If you leave it at 40 people but DE two items (I picked the lowest value items 20 dkp each) which do not go into the DKP pool each person now gets: 24.95 ( (1038-20-20)/40 ). So just with those two items you are now less than if you would have a 41st fictional bank toon taking a cut.

Yes you do earn less for items that are bid on, but its pretty insignificant when compared to what you lose by DE-ing a few items over the course of two nights of raiding.

**Pistos** · 08-15-2006, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

LOL
If you have to be DRAGGED into MC then you might as well quit the guild.
Once MC IS on farm-status, i.e. one-nighters.. then it's not too much to ask for people to show up regardless of loot or DKP. Lootwise, class-leaders should just try their best to make sure loot is allocated. Otherwise, so what? we DE for nice crystals. Big deal. If the geared people were smart, they'd simply stick with the formula and use MC to gather DKP at the expense of lesser geared people, making sure the latter occured. This DKP is then used in other areas like ONY/BWL/AQ40, etc. Rinse, wash, repeat.

That's 100% true. And maybe its different with end game instances. Maybe people will keep going for the good of getting other people geared up. But I've seen people quit running UBRS as soon as they got their chest piece. I've seen people quit running BRD once they got their Ony questing done. I'm not saying that this is a simple issue - and maybe I'm just overly paranoid about it. But if 20 of the top geared people all the sudden have much less incentive to raid MC and stop going then the "one night" runs don't happen in one night.

No matter what I'm ok with whatever system ends up being in place. All I'm saying is that this issue ends up being a little more complex than it may look on the surface. If we stay zero-sum and don't get any DKP for time spent or for DE'd items then I don't think its out of the realm of possibility to see fewer people (or maybe better put: less geared people). Personally raiding is alot of fun for me and I will keep going.

As far as ZG and AQ. I agree completely there. People still go for the rep even if they don't want any gear. But the MC rep is different and isn't the incentive that ZG and AQ is.

**Muirc** · 08-15-2006, 06:42 PM

I was thinking the same thing Pistos. If you have your top 10 people leave then as a raid you take a few steps back. You lose not only the people who are geared but the experience they have running the "one-nighters."

**Gambit7** · 08-15-2006, 06:44 PM

MC as far as I'm concerned is basically a one-night thing already. It's just that we're not far enough along yet to supplement the Ony raid with BWL yet. So it makes more sense doing Ony and then Rag.

Whatever wipes we do have are not due to gear at all in MC, they're mental mistakes. And are the main reason things get slowed down aside from loot distribution. Until this improves, no one-nighters will occur no matter how good ur gear is.

See, it all leads to the same end if you're talking about gear. The only real caveat is just plain boredom from lack of content, which in many ways can only be improved by GRINDING through these things for the necessary DKP, nexus crystals, rep, etc. You think I LIKE sittin in Silithus for countless hours killin twilights?? Hell no... but I see the content and gear at the end of the rainbow and I want it. The same will be said of MC when the time comes.
Those gamers who see the light will use it for whatever is needed, instead of just ignoring it altogether or quitting the guild.

**Chadwiko** · 08-15-2006, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by luna

I think keeping it as FCFS means people need to stay in touch with the guild and stay on top of things. I think it encourages people to log onto the site and see what's going on throughout the week, instead of the one day a week we plan to put the raids up.

It's not a FCFS basis when someone can get bumped from being SIGNED up to the QUEUE in place of someone else

I realise i'm not in the guild, but i've previously been told that for signup purposes, i'd be pretty much considered a guildie because of how loyal I have been, on the proviso that I'm signed up nice and early.

**Pistos** · 08-15-2006, 07:27 PM

The loot distribution is, for the most part, much better. Much of the credit for that is the various MLs and it really helps having the classes discuss the potential set-pcs that are "possible" drops coming up. But I agree we're close to one-nighting MC. And maybe if some new people were coming in once we had gotten MC down to 1 night it may not hurt the pace... guess we'll just have to wait and see.

And grinding rep usually isn't any fun, but we all do it (whether its Timbermaw, AD, Cenarion, or whatever). Most of that stuff can be done at "off times" with small groups or solo. But if you can do it with friends it can be fun. Just like running MC will be fun for me even if we aren't getting much DKP.

I guess the point I've been trying to get across is that while I don't feel like the raiding is about getting the gear (that is a part of it, just as is content), the whole point of a DKP system is to reward the people that are putting time into raiding and helping the guild progress either by helping to gear up others or learning fights or whatever. If people are spending extensive time raiding and coming out with just repair bills then they may choose to play an alt or farm rep in Silithus or many other things.

**beep** · 08-15-2006, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Chadwiko

It's not a FCFS basis when someone can get bumped from being SIGNED up to the QUEUE in place of someone else

I realise i'm not in the guild, but i've previously been told that for signup purposes, i'd be pretty much considered a guildie because of how loyal I have been, on the proviso that I'm signed up nice and early.

Chad, you are as close to a guildie as anyone we have without actually wearing the guild tag. I always enjoy your company on our raids. Our situation over the past couple of months has changed, however, and we now have guildies who can't get in all the raids they like.

Part of our on-going officer discussion is how to deal with this. The most likely outcome will be to clarify and solidify the priority so that mains>alts>non-guild for raid signups. In all likelihood, alts and non-guildies will only be allowed to queue to insure that mains get first crack at raiding slots.

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