Re: I'll ask cause your tanks won't.

**Pistos** · 08-31-2006, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Manetheren

As for paying tanks to die for us, Sure. i'll fork over some cash, but speaking as an extremely heavy mana user, the thought of having the guild pay for Mana pots, or Wizard/mana oil, or anything, just seems wrong. I've learned to play in a fashion that doesn't require a boatload of mana pots. I've discovered the joys of Mana Regen.

Agreed. I can see fire or nature pots for learning new bosses possibly, but people really should be finding ways to get their own either by farming cash, items to sell for cash, or the raw materials with an alt if neccessary. I don't think anyone should expect the guild bank to cover those types of costs. There are too many ways that people can get cash by spending the time - either in a group or individually.

Since our tanks are a little gimped in the farming department due to the vital spec they play on raids, lending a hand to them doesn't seem out of line either -- either from the guild bank or from individuals whenever possible.

**Gambit7** · 08-31-2006, 04:21 PM

Manny, What I meant by those who leave because they die too much are people that leave the RAID... not gquit. BUT, you just accidentally brought up another point, and a big one... and I agree with you wholeheartedly on it; There are probably those who go guild-jumping because they die alot.

As for spending gold on repairs... I'm for it to an extent; but there just HAS to be a hardcore analysis of what would be right - and that will take a lot of work. Anyone here have the skills and patience for this?

**shirokuma** · 08-31-2006, 04:56 PM

As a hunter I too know what it is like to have a big repair bill. Yes sometimes I can avoid it by FDing but remember that doesn't always work or if you are a hunter that is pulling, you are bound to die there too. I am not saying that our repair bill are as big as tanks but we do get a repair bill, plus we have to pay for bullets and what not. But I digress.

I think the tanks should get some stuff paid for but not all, the reason I don't say all is because it wouldn't be fair to the other people who die, or get hit or have to pay for their costs and what not.

I don't believe it should be a Tip system though, the reason is this. yes the tanks are tanking for us but what about the priests they are healing for us? what about the mages they are blasting for us, etc.. No roll is more important than the others, as well the guild gets items that they can sell or trade, the money that they recieve for this should go to the raid in the form of reagents and a fire/nature potion if needed how ever people must also be held responsible in supporting themselves in the form of potions. If we are trying something new then yes maybe the guild should pick up the tab for potions that are needed or some of the repair bill but this shouldn't always be the case.

If in a perfect raid where everything goes right, a tank shouldn't be dieing at all but, we can't always have a perfect raid.

I don't know if I really have a point, I guess all I am saying is that yes everyone will have a repair bill and the more epic stuff you get the bigger your repair bill will be how ever that is the cost you have to pay in order to get the so called epic loot.

Shiro

**Altor** · 08-31-2006, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by shirokuma

If in a perfect raid where everything goes right, a tank shouldn't be dieing at all but, we can't always have a perfect raid. Shiro

Even if the Tank doesn't die...he is still being beaten upon.

There are 2 classes that are support classes. Tanks and healers. We couldn't do a raid without them. Nukers/Ranged/Melee can all be substituted for. So I wouldn't have a problem helping those classes, within the raid, by tipping. I'm not going to have the repair bill of the tank. I also won't have the bill from the healer who is purchasing reagents/pots to keep me alive in a raid.

A mages repair bill is small and they don't require the pots a healer would. We can generate our own mana.

Hunters won't have much in repair bills either (4-5g). Bullets don't cost much and they can also regen their own mana quickly.

Rogues, if they don't steal aggro, whould be fine. I don't play one so I really can't say for sure.

Warlocks, don't play one either, shouldn't have a huge repair bill either.

Druid...They can tank and heal. But unless that is their role in that raid, they also should be fine (I think!).

Pally's...Here is were, I think, we start with a support class. They have to buff 8 times every 15 minutes (reagents). They also tank some. I would think the repair bill is around 10g with another 4g in reagents.

Priests...I don't even know what their reagents cost. I bet it is a bunch. They also have to have mana pots to keep us alive. I would figure 15-20g per raid??

Warriors...These guys get beat up on all night long. If they didn't, then the squishies would be dieing instead. For them to pay 15g in repair bills means other classes aren't paying it. Give em some love.

**Pistos** · 08-31-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Altor

Priests...I don't even know what their reagents cost. I bet it is a bunch. They also have to have mana pots to keep us alive. I would figure 15-20g per raid??

I usually spend about 8-12g per night in candles and repairs for a decent night. I seem to die a decent amount even on good nights though - stupid 4 packs. I don't buy any of my mana pots anymore since my alt can farm the herbs, so that saves me a ton of money there. I don't think my raid costs are excessive at all. Some days the bill is really high, but its just the tradeoff you have to do end-game content.

**sturmn** · 08-31-2006, 07:33 PM

I cant speak for other pallies but on a typical MC run up to but not including Domo u usually have anywhere from 3-6G in repairs and the reagent cost comes to about 1G. IMO thats a very insignificant amount compaired to other costs. That does not include the costs for potions; however i have done many MC runs without using potions of any kind and only died on wipes.

**Kittywampus** · 08-31-2006, 07:52 PM

I must say one thing though...When i was MT 2 in the past and here and there....the amount that i have to pay for my repair bill is about the same amount of gold that we end up getting off of all those bosses that we take down that day. In the end I might have started with 1-3g more but that isn't very hard to make up.
Now im not sure if its the same way with Beep...most likely not because MT 1 dies a lot more considering he is the first one to be hit on 90% of the trash mobs and such. So I think that if anyone would to recieve a little bit of gold tanking, it would have to be beep. And maybe on those off nights...and when we start BWL, then that's when we could maybe give a small amount of gold to the tanks. But for MC now...we shouldn't be wiping at all.
BTW i just wanted to make one last comment to anyone who has a good amount of FR gear. On the rag fight it seems everyone uses a fire resistant potion...however i do not. When i am not trying to tank rag or assisting Beep with him, my FR gear is well enough to last the whole fight. The times i die are when its at the very end, but we have already done the huge amount of dps and we have taken on those sons of rag. Just wanted to point this out to those that have great FR gear. If you don't, go get some! Then maybe we might not have to worry about so many pots being made.

**Arkamis** · 08-31-2006, 08:35 PM

I'm a pally in all purple, including 2 pieces of tier 2. My repair bill after a night of raiding is almost never less than double digits. I don't complain, however, as I can farm the money I need pretty handily. And I usually don't die a lot.

Reagent cost is insubstantial to me. I don't even blink at it. Same for potions. Not only do I supply my own, but I regularly send mats to our alchemists when I find them on the AH for cheap.

HOWEVER, I AM SICK AND TIRED OF MAILING LOOT TO THE BANK. THAT 30c PER SCARAB STACK IS KILLING ME. I DEMAND COMPENSATION!

(just kidding of course)

**Arkamis** · 08-31-2006, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kittywampus

On the rag fight it seems everyone uses a fire resistant potion...however i do not. When i am not trying to tank rag or assisting Beep with him, my FR gear is well enough to last the whole fight. The times i die are when its at the very end, but we have already done the huge amount of dps and we have taken on those sons of rag. Just wanted to point this out to those that have great FR gear. If you don't, go get some! Then maybe we might not have to worry about so many pots being made.

Has anyone else also noticed that when we don't have pots because we took 2 attempts already, we have flawless kills? Buru... Ayamiss... Rags... hrm....

**Delg** · 08-31-2006, 09:32 PM

Speaking from the Tank Perspective I have always (and i mean always) taken the repair bills to simply be a facet of being a tank. face it we have less other costs (no mats at all, no pots besides fairly cheap health pots, if we are a Main tank for some of the harder fights i have seen the respecitve fire res pot or such given to the MT which i think is good (have that subsidized by the Guild bank, instead of poor ricca hehe and i would aggree totally.)) Now that being said i think perhaps when we are doing learning runs (BWL atm) that perhaps those with higher than normal repairs (tanks, rogues etc) perhaps have a small (and i do mean small 2-4g max) stipend from guild bank or donations whatever to assist in repairs. now this would help ease some tension of people who dont want to go while we learn simply because of the repair bills. Other than that i would not feel right to single out a group and have them be subsidised for repairs. We tank.. that is what we do. for the most part i think i only lose about 4-8g per raid once everything is factored in.. that is about 30min of farming with my alt or an hour on Delg picking flowers. that being said.. can i get a loan for a mount, i am a bit broke... (just kidding)

Keep your shield up.
Delgarond Battlehammer

**orion808** · 08-31-2006, 10:30 PM

This is what I get for waiting a day to reply to this....already discussed with officers one night.

We will be setting up a Tank Armor fund to help with some of the extreme costs of your armor repairs. The method is to be decided. I don't want ppl taking advantage of the generosity, but our MTs can't farm like my hunter can.

**Anah** · 09-01-2006, 09:31 AM

Fwiw, Friolator doesn't take fire pots for Rag. He can stay alive just fine with fire ward, ice barrier and an occasional renew or rejuv or health pot. He dies when one of two things happens (with or without a pot). 1. he gets tossed into the lava and can't find a point to get out from. or 2. the sons aren't frozen in place and his blizzard aggros some who break loose. The sons drain mana and do heavy damage. Without mana to defend myself, Fri is toast.

**Tonk** · 09-01-2006, 03:41 PM

now that the 'zomg its rag we gonna get pwnd' feeling is gone from rags... in reality... it is a hella easy fight... a boss that sticks to the tank no matter how much u pwn... an EXPECTED aoe at regular intervals..... and then he takes a nap while his children die bloody horrible deaths from the tip of my arrow... in reality.... death can be 100% avoided in this fight.. as long as we all do what were sposed to ( dps rags all u got till he goes nappy... kill the offspring...kill rags dead)

**Gaviin** · 09-01-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chair

a boss that sticks to the tank no matter how much u pwn...

hm?

**Manny** · 09-01-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by msheahen

hm?

Gaviin, unfortunately, Pwns to hard.

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