Re: To the future and beyond...

**luna** · 10-03-2006, 09:07 PM

I would like to see us putting all of our eggs into the BWL basket in terms of new content. We've only seen 2 bosses in BWL, and I really, REALLY want to see more. I say 2-3 days of BWL a week.

AQ40 once we are wiping on Nefarian.

That's my humble opinion.

**Arkamis** · 10-03-2006, 10:26 PM

I suppose some people might want to hear where I stand on this, since I'm driving a lot of the time =P.

I will concede that AQ40 gear is at best a sidegrade from Tier 2.
I will concede that Brood rep is mostly a luxury and equivalent gear is accessible elsewhere.
I will further concede that AQ40 is mostly skippable.

However, AQ40 is important for the skill development we will need for Naxxramas. While we might never down C'Thun or Ouru, AQ40 contains something much more important.

Backpedal a bit.

MC is a tank-and-spank instance. Two tanks. Heal them. Do damage. When the s*** hits the fan, other warriors tank. Over, and over, and over. There are really only 5 types of mobs in all of MC: rocks, fireballs, dogs, giants and bosses. While there are different types and they're a little different, they're all fundamentally the same.

BWL is the complete opposite. "Welcome to BWL. Here's the first pull, and by the way, it's a boss." It's all boss-oriented. Razorgore is tricksy... but managable. And like I said, he's the first pull. Then the next pull is, well, Vael. Yummy. After Vael we have 2 dragon packs and the suppression rooms before yet another boss, then only 8 trash packs before 4 more bosses. The bosses are challenging, but still they don't develop the types of flexibility needed for Naxxramas.

AQ40 has more trash and more bosses that force people to react, to know the fight. It requires people to think on their feet, and to know the fight. I keep harping on how everyone needs to know every class, every type of debuff, every ability of what they're fighting. Truth be told, we DON'T need that now, but it will become more and more important.

Already many people are getting bored by MC. I've already hit Exalted with the Hydraxian Waterlords, and can run the whole thing off comms because I simply know what is happening just by looking, and I'm not the only one. That's not to say I don't enjoy MC, nor do I think we should abandon it anytime soon, but we need to start focusing on what talents we need to develop before stepping into the last 40-man in the game.

I'm not leading anyone on when I say AQ40 is doable now. But, we risk spreading outselves thin with BWL. We'll be at Chrommie in no time, and we'll be at Nefarian very soon. I think when we drop the three drakes, maybe we can reward ourselves with some pokes at Skeram. If for no other reason, fighting the trash will be a good way to do a systems check before moving forward.

Skeram isn't much tougher than Majordomo or Razorgore. But to down him, we need to have everyone reacting double time. Truth be told, I'm not certain I see that happening, but we're a hell of a long way from where we were.

We can totally start downing bosses in Naxx within 4 months or so, no doubt. But I truly think that getting into AQ40 within the next 2 will be the right step.

**Amrod** · 10-04-2006, 10:49 AM

I agree that BWL should be the primary focus. But, as Ark said, eventually it will do us good to sharpen our skills in AQ40. I'd like to see this happen AFTER we get much, much further into BWL on a consistent basis.

n.b. This is mostly fueled by greed

Boss #3 = Fankriss the Unyielding = [item]Barb of the Sand Reaver[/item]

Boss #4 = Princess Huhuran = [item]Huhuran's Stinger[/item]

/drool

**shirokuma** · 10-04-2006, 12:35 PM

I agree with everyone here, There is no point in doing Nax or AQ40 if we can't do BWL and do MC without wiping. I would say yes that MC is on farm status, as well as Ony. BWL, even raz, is no way on farm status and we have to get bwl down first. We will need to be able to work as a guild to get bwl down and this is the learning zone to do this. If we can't work as a time and get strats down and LISTEN to what is being said there is no way we can do AQ40 and certainly Nax.

MC is a zone that almost any raid put together can do because a lot of it is simply bash away. BWL is more of a raid where you have to listen and use alot of tatics. AQ40 and NAX is a raid where you have to be a well oiled machine where there is no early dmg and everyone is ALWAYS on their game.

We need to get bwl down and once we do then move on. Speacking on AQ40 yes there are no set pieces but there are really nice items that are there that I would love to get and I am sure there are other people as well that would love to get some of the items there.

TG is growing and we need to do these zones in steps.

Shiro

**Gambit7** · 10-04-2006, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Manetheren

Siulung, I respect your opinion, and please, don't take this as me shooting you down...

Books are not the be all and end all of things to have.

Oath, Imminent, PoA, Legacy, Reverent, Divinus... Yeah, they were pwning BWL and MC before AQ came out.

Books, arguably, are a crutch.

CC rep is just another rep grind.. it's no better, or worse than any of the other rep grinds in this game, except that it was DESIGNED to be the first REAL rep grind. ZG was introduced as an instance first... a grind second. Blizz Remapped all of Silithus to turn it into a huge, painful rep grind.

The gear is decent, but again, not necessary. It's not about the power of your spells, it's how you use it.

Are we to go into AQ40/Naxx without books for everyone? I think not. As well, I can tell you personally that I'm one of the weaker mages in the guild (due to lack of raid time) and once I had 2 of my 3 books and learned to utilize them, I leapfrogged in dmg. quite a bit, all the while conserving mana and health. It DOES make a difference (moreso to dmg classes I assume). Mobs die faster, priests save mana, less people die, gold is saved, yada yada yada. It also gives more room to make mistakes and still recover. Matter of fact, it was SO important to my toon and class that I dropped 600gold on a book.

As for whether gear is necessary or un-necessary, that's to be determined on a per-toon basis. For me, it's 5 tier 1 pieces with rep-based loot to fill in the gaps... for now. Knowing your gear will save you time and DKP. As well, different gear suits different situations. Simply gearing from MC will not necessarily put you in the best positions for every boss. I have stuff for dmg., for stamina, for mana-endurance, for resists.. blah blah. This plethora of different types of gear comes from different places.

If the entire guild just geared up from BWL over and over it'd take MUCH longer to get the gear and you'd have only 1 type, not to mention you'd be bored. Having that extra 40-man (AQ40) to pick from helps a lot of people get things they'd have to wait in line for. Same with brood rep. And speeds up the guild.

Example: From brood rep and AQ40 you can get a 5-piece set for mages (enigma vestments) that deals a crapload more damage then tier 2 (netherwind regalia). Note the robes:
tier 2: http://www.wowwiki.com/Netherwind_Robes
tier "2.5": http://www.wowwiki.com/Enigma_Robes

Take into account the target resistance reduction (20) and it's nearly on par with tier 3 (frostfire regalia, which is only 13).

Yes, it wont have the resistances... but, most times mages are good in this area. I'm not going to explain the stats, just look em up. Anyways, this means you wont have to sit there grinding a raid over and over to get your tier 2 8-piece set, and you have a nice platform to get into tier 3 and beyond. You can simply mix and match, 5 of one... 3 of another, etc. Or hell, get both.

The rings from BoN are nice, not great... but for many people they will be a great upgrade from what they have, or simply a good avenue to apply a different kind of hurtin on a mob or player. As well, they upgrade per rep level. For me, it offers me a great dmg. ring I'd otherwise have to get elsewhere; spending DKP or taking from another guildie who'd need a similar ring.

In those regards, for instance, I'll have 4 CC pieces on my toon shortly... all of which replace a piece from MC (and are better in many ways). Because of this, I've seen and will see other guildies get gear I'd have rolled on otherwise, or spent DKP... slowing down the guild. As well, it helps me keep pace with the others since I hit 60 later. In a way you can look at it as instead of goin 1,2,3.. goin 1.5, 2.5, etc. Look at it as 6 tiers instead of only 3. For some the gear will be ZG, others AD, and the uber BoN, etc.

So you see... these "side-gear" instances are EXTREMELY important. Our guild is too nimble to ignore them. If we stopped doing them, our progress would slow considerably. They compel the player to work on things themselves in their spare time to benefit the guild and their toon simultaneously; instead of just simply showing up for the traditional 40-mans, grabbin loot and running.

-And in the end, to "conquer" this game... we must kill everything in it. Gear or no gear. This is where the fun lies.

**Sajier** · 10-04-2006, 01:27 PM

Siulung, while books are helpful, they aren't make or break. Yes they help, no one debates that, but with every one of the "book" spells being trainable at trainers in BC, it will become even less of an issue in a couple months when BC comes out (if it ever does

)

**Gambit7** · 10-04-2006, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sajier

Siulung, while books are helpful, they aren't make or break. Yes they help, no one debates that, but with every one of the "book" spells being trainable at trainers in BC, it will become even less of an issue in a couple months when BC comes out (if it ever does

)

How much will the training cost? And at what lvls?

**Gambit7** · 10-04-2006, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by shirokuma

We need to get bwl down and once we do then move on. Speacking on AQ40 yes there are no set pieces but there are really nice items that are there that I would love to get and I am sure there are other people as well that would love to get some of the items there.

TG is growing and we need to do these zones in steps.

Shiro

There ARE set-pieces u need AQ40 for. Just 5 instead of 8. Granted, they're rep based. Within the instance, no... but that doesnt mean they're any less valuable - sets arent the be-all end-all. Rep pieces also set u apart from others and make u less of a "clone".

What I sense will probably happen as the guild grows is BoN rep will become the new CC rep. As of now, a LOT more people are interested in CC rep. When I started doing it, there was basically only a few and AQ20 was barely on the raid schedule, not to mention we had to pull from outside... so things have changed. As well, those involved with CC rep naturally carry into BoN. The two go hand in hand.

Point is, once things become "visible" more people will demand the content. Once people get through with CC or bypass it, Lashlayer drops his head, and we peak inside AQ40 to get a look at the fun and loot - I GUARANTEE you people will want inside.

**Pistos** · 10-04-2006, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

How much will the training cost? And at what lvls?

From what I've read (and this is from memory so I don't claim to be 100% correct) I believe those ranks will be available at 62 and will cost 5g to train.

If I have some time I'll try and look it up on the forums.

**Quarath** · 10-04-2006, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wintrow

Has there been any thought to organizing efforts to grind AD rep to help with Naxx attunement? I'm thinking of scheduling repeated clears of Scholo/Strat (i.e. 4-6 concurrent 5-mans?)

I like this I think 5 mans can be fun plus I have less lag issues in smaller parties than raids. I am sure plenty of us still need rep with AD for Naxx atunment later.

**Tarenth** · 10-06-2006, 05:11 AM

Personally I want to go into AQ40 just to be able to go into AQ40 and see the sights and all that jazz. A [item]Barb of the Sand Reaver[/item] wouldn't hurt as well.

The AQ40 5 set is actually one of the best PvP and damage dealing sets out there. While that's great for damage dealers they're lackluster for healers and tanks. Of course, you also have to consider just how hard it is to get those pieces. 2 of the pieces can only be acquired from killing the last two bosses in AQ40. Then again, there's the actual gear in AQ40. Its somewhat true to say that BWL gear is the best suited for raiding. Druid gear is for heals, warrior gear is for tanking, etc etc etc. The AQ40 gear and loot drops are actually for people who want to try and raid a different way than the proscribed roles. DPS Paladins, DPS Priests, DPS and Tanking druid gear, Spell damage Hunter/Shaman gear, DPS Warrior gear and all that jazz. If it does nothing else, it will help get our oddball members some better gear. If fact, running AQ40 will benefit us a lot more for content in BC because of the need for those odd balls to do several jobs at once.

But we've talked 40 mans to death. We all agree we need to keep running MC and focus totally on BWL for now. Afterwards we diverge on if we want to enter AQ40 or Naxx as the next 'big thing' but we can bring that up again once we get deep into BWL...like when we work on Nef or Chromagus.

ANYHOW

New Topic!

What about how we run the 20 man instances? We have 3 days to do 2 instances and we can probably do both in 1 day each. We also have the (wo)manpower to field 2 runs at once if we really wanted to. So how should things go on?

Should we focus on one run to the instance per night so that the avalible pool of free people can be used to fill gaps as people leave so we can finish the instance in one night without having to give up?

Should we field 2 runs to the same instance per night so that everyone who wants to go can go even if its not in the same raid?

Should we field 1 instance run to each instance (AQ20/ZG) so that everyone can run but we don't get any lock outs to future runs? In fact, if the need arises we could even canabalize one of the raids if it falls apart to help the other run to completion.

What about alt runs? Should we run more or just start to open up the raids to alt sign ups since the mains hardly need any of the gear drops there any more?

Should we use any free day to work on 5 man instances? Rep grinding AD for Naxx attunements? Working on BWL? How about just having a day off to relax and not raid?

We've talked 40 man instances to death and how we'd like to proceed. How about how we manage our time for future schedules?

Oh yeah! One last question about the schedule itself. Should we stick with randomized postings or standardize them to a specific time? Should we keep the odd 'first come first served' sign ups or give a little bit of leeway for people to sign up before the list is filled by the class leaders based on a variety of different issues?

**Iliana** · 10-06-2006, 09:09 AM

The reasoning behind doing the randomly scheduled raids was to give others a chance to get into the raids. When all the raids were always at the same time, the sign ups were "camped" if you will, and the same ppl were always signed up. This way, there is no predictability and others are able to get into the raids. There have been plenty of cases where one of our regular raiders has stepped down to let a not so frequent raider get in from que.
As for having 2 20-mans at the same time, we've done that a few times with (what I think) great results. The problem is that it takes a long time to get both raids up and going and to make sure that there is SOME class balance.

**Anah** · 10-06-2006, 10:45 AM

We have had many attempts at 2 20-man raids that have failed too... Too many people don't show up for them. We have had single alt 20-man raids fail because not enough mains showed up to support the alts (we don't have 20 lvl60 alts who are active in the guild yet. While we have the man power, we don't have the will to succeed regularly with multiple raids. We've talked about further expansion many times to allow us to continue growing, but that will carry a growing pain with it, where raid space will be at more of a premium. With lowbies coming up all the time, it is not an option though, it is an inevitability. We need people to show up for multi-raids. First 2 20-mans, then a 20 and 40 together, finally maybe 2 40s. There will be plenty of people who need to do MC to get gear before being ready for BWL, while those who have done a lot of MC will continue with BWL.

As far as AQ40 goes - I'm all for it. There are plenty of items in there that are FAR superior to the BWL stuff - weapons especially. There may not be any way to get the enchants that drop in there - I don't expect an enchanting trainer to be around for the 300-350 recipes, and those enchants are UBER. Though I do believe the skills learned in there could also be learned in Naxx... Lots of wipes = lots of wipes regardless of where they happen. But we do need to get all the way through BWL a few times before we start knocking on Naxx's door. At least there's not expensive attunement to AQ40.

**XPalSolaris** · 10-06-2006, 12:34 PM

Alright, this is my input, I didnt read all of the posts, mostly cause im lazy. But, Alot like Manny are saying AQ40 is junk, and honestly, I thought so to -Until the release of naxx. I liked how Manny pointed out that its alot of "bastard spec" gear, well, for priests, Naxx needs at least 1 shadowpriest on the first boss of the Necro-Knight wing. Plus most of the bosses in naxx scale on difficulty with the twin emps. Also, there is a TON of great resistance gear in AQ40 that we use in Naxx alot of the time. (Usually on the craptastic trash) I also agree with the side that the gear is mediocre as well.. but its needed. Just my 2c.. since i raid both instances about 4 nights a week.. when i feel like it. =P

**Pistos** · 10-06-2006, 12:45 PM

We'll get better running the twin 20s if we keep trying. I think alot of people would like a more set schedule. One 20 man night and one twin 20 man night or something for T,W. I don't mean we can't be flexible but it seems from week to week the calendar changes dramatically. People also need to continue to be courteous and give up their spot if asked occasionally. Especially on the 20 mans. That doesn't seem like too much of a problem currently but its worth putting out there. A set schedule of nights has worked very well with MC, perhaps it could benefit us for the other instances too.

For example:
Week 1 - Tuesday ZG 8pm, Wed AQ 7:30 & ZG Enchant Run 8:00
Week 2 - Tuesday AQ 7:30, Wed ZG 8:00 & Alt ZG 8:00

And then just keep flipping those nights back and forth. If Ony comes up and we want to do her T or W then we push the times back or drop the other raids. Just ideas

. (by the way did you see I again mentioned a Jindo/Bloodlord only ZG run?)

I agree that we can cross the "next 40 man" bridge when we get further into BWL. However, I think having a outline of where we want to go as a guild progression wise is a good thing. There is a natural progression as far as MC->BWL. Past that though I don't know. And open discussion on the guilds goals seems like a positive idea.

AQ40 Enchants are cool and there's some gear there too, but definitely nothing that wows me like Naxx wows me. That's probably alot to do with my blah feeling about AQ40 in general. Plus the Naxx content and storyline seems infinitely more appealing than AQ. But I only speak for myself and my own opinions and make no assumptions that anyone agrees with me.

Attunement isn't expensive if you are exalted with AD

.

EDIT: Meant to put in there that adding a 3rd BWL night every week or every other week would be awesome, something like Thurs, Fri, Sunday for BWL. Progression would go much quicker and we could actually have the AQ40/Naxx argument sooner!!!

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