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Discussion: World of Warcraft / World of Warcraft - General Discussion - Vael... - That's great, in theory, Sajier. If people stick to it, then yeah, it would work
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10-10-2006, 08:25 PM #16
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Re: Vael...
That's great, in theory, Sajier. If people stick to it, then yeah, it would work well.
Ninja
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10-10-2006, 08:26 PM #17
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Re: Vael...
Guys, Seriously. That Ubrs fire buff thing is the Epitome of a crutch. Honestly. We're learning a fight, it's tough. No guild i've talked to has used that stupid buff (that's probably wasted time anyways due to the fact that you're probably going to die anyways)
The buff isn't needed, nor will it make anything easier. Don't waste the raids time getting it.
And i don't mean 'Get it before the raid'. I mean, don't get it. Not everybody is going to get it, and the fight won't magically get easier if you have it. Learn the fight without the crutch, please._________________
I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.
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10-10-2006, 10:10 PM #18
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Re: Vael...
I disagree with Manny on this one. I don't know how you can call a buff a "crutch" when we have not been able to beat this boss yet. Are mana pots a crutch? Are healing pots a crutch? Why in hell would we waste enormous resources on Flasks when we can get a buff that will likely put us over the top for free? If it takes us more than 15 minutes to break into groups of 10 and run into UBRS to get buff and to get back to Vael then we're doing something really wrong. What makes more sense, wiping repeatedly to try and prove a point or getting a buff and downing this bastard?
It won't make much a difference to me because I'm going to die regardless. What it may do is keep 10 others alive which mean Vael actually dies. Call it a crutch if you will but my old guild with virtually the identical gear was one shotting Ragnaros a month prior to TG because we took the time to do the UBRS buff.
Regardless, whatever the guild or the raid leaders decide I'll go along with but I think it's unfair to call it a "crutch" until we can prove that we can kill this biotch.“Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook
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10-10-2006, 10:56 PM #19
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Re: Vael...
Again, i point out that...
Originally Posted by TG_Bear
A) Big waste of time. Vael will never be on farm status. we're learning the fight... there's gonna be a point where we'll be doing vael on the same night as Razorgore. people will die on Razorgore, and they'll lose the buff... should we slow down the raid to go and get it again?
B) Chances are, Vael will destroy us no matter WHAT the fire resist is. That Fire breath of his does RIDICULOUS damage. it's meant to. It's a raid wiper. if you get hit with it, it's a clear and direct message that your raid isn't doing something right.
C) Hellloooooo, no other guilds use it. why should we?
As a paladin (read:Buffbot) I stand as close to vael as anybody else. I'm constantly chewing on his fire aura... and i've been breathed on. clothies aren't meant to survive that breath. it's overpowered... Extremely overpowered. but it's that way for a reason. no amount of FR will save a raid from it if anybody but the tanks take it in.
Lastly, I'll point out that we went to the trouble of getting it on Sunday... and No offence guys, but... Fat lotta good it did us on that first attempt.
It's a crutch. health pots and mana pots aren't even necessary for that fight, bear. so i spit on your example.
Trust me. I know the fight, and i know we don't need some stupid buff._________________
I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.
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10-11-2006, 02:48 AM #20
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Re: Vael...
Health pots and Mana pots are, actually, a crutch. Just as much as flash heal is a crutch. Does it make life easier? Yeah. Is it worth it? For the amount you invest in them the amount you get out of it will vary.
Anyhow, the FR buff from UBRS is nice, but not needed. Honestly? The effort it takes for 15-20 minutes of running out, buffing, then running back in when the fight will only last 3 minutes TOPS and 10 seconds at the bottom really isn't worth it.My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.
Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.
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10-11-2006, 10:43 AM #21
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Re: Vael...
Originally Posted by Manetheren
Jesus Manny relax, I'm just bringing up some alternative options. You know the fight a lot better than I do so if you say it's not necessary then I'll trust you. I wasn't aware that you did it on Sunday night, maybe it's not the panacea for Vael that it is for Rag's.“Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook
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10-11-2006, 10:58 AM #22
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Re: Vael...
I think this is the main difference, really. Aside from a freak wipe, there aren't too many times in the Rags fight where the whole raid is wiped in one shot. If people drop, they tend to drop individually or in small chunks (again, barring a full-on freak accident). Also, 80 more FR should improve your chances to resist the AoE knockback by a lot. It's worth it then (while learning the fight-it's not necessary now) to get the UBRS buff because there is a good chance quite a few people will still be standing by the end - enough to make it worth it. Originally Posted by TG_Bear
For Vael, the norm is for the *whole* raid to be torched in one flame breath following errant aggro. And with the amount of health this guy has and the ferocity of his attacks and AoE, those 5 people standing at the end, +80 FR or not, are not gonna be much more than dragon snacks
Flasks seemed to help, but the FR buff, imo, seems like too much work for very little payout. I like the idea of everyone installing KTM a lot better...
"What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot
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10-11-2006, 12:28 PM #23
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Re: Vael...
I for one implore you *not* to "relax", Manny. I encourage lively debate on relevant issues, and I'm not sure why everyone always has to say "chill out", "calm down" or something to that effect when people are insistent or passionate about a certain viewpoint. It's very dismissive, rude, and, more often than not, unwarranted.
I also agree with your explanation, and I think bothering with the ubrs buff is a waste of time. This is especially the case considering we have enough trouble as it is starting our raids on time. Amrod is also right in that KTM will help the raid a whole lot more than some silly buff that doesn't have the decency to stick around through death. :-)Ninja
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10-11-2006, 12:35 PM #24
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Re: Vael...
Gav, it took us all of 10 mins to buff all the warriors, priests, and rogues who came to UBRS Sunday night. Yeah its a shortlived buff, it goes when someone dies, but if it causes me to resist even 10% more damage on the AE or the breath, to me thats worth it. I don't have the HP to take much damage. If I get the breath at full health, I have 1 tick to get a shield and heal on myself before I am dead. If that even gives me 1 more tick then its worth it to me.
Also, some of our tanks don't have 200FR, they get eaten up before they even get to their spot in the rotation, and if 80 extra FR keeps them up, reduces healing needed, and thus makes transitions easier, why is that a bad thing, a waste of time?
I am firmly on the side of doing everything we can to try to succeed, same idea behind doing all the work for flasks and such. If taking 10 mins to put 80FR on a bunch of people helps us accomplish that goal, not required but helps, then to me, we take the time.Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic
TG WoW Home Page | TG Required Reading | The Irregulars | Irregulars Forum
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10-11-2006, 02:12 PM #25
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Re: Vael...
Agreed Sajier on the anything that can help us to accomplish the goal but I think the real frustration comes on us being very lax on our raid start times. I think if people want to get there early and do the buff ahead of time then there would be no problem but what happens is we start pushing start times back. This takes away time from additional attempts as well as extending the raid to odd hours of the night.
With that being said, maybe a hard line start on raids needs to be set. I understand if the raid start late because it isn't full and we are trying to fill spots. But if we want to progress further we need to focus and take care of everything you need to do before the raid(potions, repair, arrows, reagents..etc.) not a few minutes before the posted start time.
Just my two cents."Remember that all things are only opinions and that it is in your power to think as you please."
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10-11-2006, 02:52 PM #26
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Re: Vael...
Both sides make some good arguments in my opinion (though everyone should be cautious that our passion is channeled properly so as to not minimize other's opinions/ideas). I'd probably lean more towards forgetting about the buff, though, unless we do it on every Vael attempt (which, I know, is a ludicrous suggestion). The likelihood that we ever one-shot Vael, from the sound of it, is very small with or without the buff. It really didn't take too long the other night to buff up a small group of people, but it was rather frustrating to go into the fight and 2.5 minutes later be running back to my corpse and being no better off than we were before the buff.
I do sense that one of the biggest frustrations here has nothing to do with the buff itself, but rather with the relatively lax approach that some take to our raid start times. We have a hard enough time getting everyone online and at the instance prior to the scheduled pull, so I can definitely see the hesitation to adding one more reason for delaying things. Unfortunately, I think that the only solution to this problem is for everyone to improve their own discipline at getting to the instance on-time. We can't very well just start without people once 8:00 hits, nor do we have any room to "penalize" latecomers by holding them out of future raids (doesn't seem in-line with TG mentality). We could do simple things like change the invite announcement in guild chat to ask people to leave their groups by the invite time rather than by the pull time, but that obviously won't change individual habits.
However this buff thing turns out, I'm fine with, provided we don't negatively impact the pull time. I have fun MC-ing mobs and throwing out buffs so I'm happy to get on earlier to participate. Sajier organized things efficiently the other night so the priests can get things set up quickly so long as we have a steady stream of buff recipients.70 Priest
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10-11-2006, 02:56 PM #27
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Re: Vael...
I hate being told to relax because i'm usually quite relaxed when i write these posts. you can generally tell when i'm irate cause I stop spell checking my posts and usually take a really long time to write them so i don't say anything that'll get the post deleted and me banned from the forums.
I do, however, strongly believe that the FR Aura is pointless. that's my stand on this fight. if you get it, great, but it probably isn't going to be of any use to you.
The Manny has Spoken.
... again._________________
I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.
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10-11-2006, 03:26 PM #28
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Re: Vael...
It's all well and good that it took you 10 minutes to dole out the buffs the other night. The fact of the matter is the raid start was 30 minutes late, and I think the buff contributed to that. Yes, it's nice to do everything we can to increase our chances of downing Vael, but there's a cost-benefit analysis that goes along with any decision. And the point is I (and Manny and others) believe that the benefit does not outweigh the cost in this case.
In the end, if you choose to get the buff and are ready to fight at the scheduled start time, I don't really care.Ninja
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10-11-2006, 06:12 PM #29
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Re: Vael...
Raid was late because people didnt show up. There were like 10 spots open at queue time. As well, we had to pull from outside before during and at the end of the raid.
BWL is a very short and sweet instance, so anything you do above and beyond the time spent actually fighting is STILL way less then spent doin other dungeons like MC, AQ, etc. So again, whining about time is a bit illogical.
If you guys think 80 FR buff and 10 mins of your time is a bit much; I went to silithus at invites, finished 2 tactical quests in 2 separate hives, killed 5 bugs (finishing a combat quest), collected all mats and turned in items to gain gear that would help during the Vael fight - so moanin about 10 mins in UBRS/LBRS is quite trivial to me... oh, and I also cooked up a lotta buffing stuff that would help. Summoned? Nope.
During Vael people were willing to farm for shards - this I thought was AWESOME. Others thought it was a waste of time. Would it have helped? One may never know. Same goes for the 80 FR.
Point is, do what u can with the time you have... the content is there, the stuff is there... so just do it.
I agree with Manny that it is somewhat of a crutch, but it also doesnt hurt to have. You never know, it might just save a wipe. So if you're one of those people who's gear is a little lacking (u cant apply heal/dmg without saccing FR or stamina, etc.) maybe it would behoove u just to go and do it, if not just for the comfort of having it.
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10-11-2006, 06:57 PM #30
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Re: Vael...
Perhaps if you had handled your response with a little more maturity and dignity than "I spit on your suggestion" I wouldn't have responded with the "relax" comment. I'd like to believe that we're all adults here and we can have a mature discussion that involves spirited debate. There is no ONE way to do anything in this game and 10 minutes for 80 FR will not hurt anyone. If you say it's useless I'll just point this out to you. The guild I left to come to Thunderhorn was at the exact same point TG was. They're now FARMING VAEL and working all the way to Nepharian. You tell me what's wrong? Originally Posted by Manetheren
If you're so confident of your position and your tactics that you can summarily dismiss others thoughts then as far as I'm concerned you can tank the guy yourself because I won't be joining any BWL raids.“Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook
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