Re: BwL attempts...

**Sacredlord** · 10-24-2006, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by beep

P.S. FWIW, I am not seeing any NEW volunteers for leading from anyone...anyone...Buehler?

I have seen it all dozen of times, if english was my first language I´d feel very comfortable to lead ALL raids if necessary, but unfortunately I don´t feel confident to lead myself althoug I could give any support to our "trainees".

**Sacredlord** · 10-24-2006, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

Also, let's not get the former mixed up with something a bit selfish. "Aww man, we shouldnt add raids because then I'd miss some!" That's a selfish statement; I'm not saying anyone said it... but it crosses ALL our minds when we cant do something we want - making raids as well.

Well said.

MC Should be done EVERY week, this is out of discussion, but in a rotation schedule FRI, SAT or SUN, giving everyone opportunity to make it according to their RL schedule.

So, as stated before, there will be 3-4 raids a week, like we actually do, and what we are trying to make here is please everyone according to their needs.

Would not be fair to lock MC on every sunday night if we have people that works on this day, so this instance should rotate in the weekend, starting one week on friday, next week saturday and finally sunday when it restarts all over again on a friday night.

Should work like this:

WEEK #1

Mon -- BwL 7:30pm (2h dedicated to finish whatever we couldn’t on Sunday or any 20 man instance if we don’t get enough people);

Tue -- Ony 7:30pm + 20 man instance;

Wed -- 20 man instance 7:30pm;

Thu -- "Day off" (Lords, 20 man instance, farming...);

Fri --- MC 7:30pm;

Sat -- BwL 7:30pm (Razor, Vael and Broodlord attempts);

Sun -- BwL 7:30pm (killing Broodlord and firemawl attempts).

WEEK #2

Mon -- BwL 7:30pm (2h dedicated to finish whatever we couldn’t on Sunday or any 20 man instance if we don’t get enough people);

Tue -- Ony 7:30pm + 20 man instance;

Wed -- 20 man instance 7:30pm;

Thu -- "Day off" (Lords, 20 man instance, farming...);

Fri --- BwL 7:30pm (Razorgore, Vael and Broodlord attempts);

Sat -- MC 7:30pm;

Sun -- BwL 7:30pm (Killing Broodlord and Firemawl attempts).

WEEK #3

Mon -- BwL 7:30pm (2h dedicated to finish whatever we couldn’t on Sunday or any 20 man instance if we don’t get enough people);

Tue -- Ony 7:30pm + 20 man instance;

Wed -- 20 man instance 7:30pm;

Thu -- "Day off" (Lords, 20 man instance, farming...);

Fri --- BwL 7:30pm (Razorgore, Vael and Broodlord attempts);

Sat -- BwL 7:30pm (Killing Broodlord and Firemawl attempts);

Sun -- MC 7:30pm.

See? Everyone will get a chance to raid MC now...

Waiting for your comments!

SL.

**Sajier** · 10-24-2006, 10:38 AM

I know the officers are working on getting a couple new raid leaders going and that they will be beginning soon. God knows Ark, Crebis, Chair, Manny, and Luna could use the help.

**Anah** · 10-24-2006, 11:29 AM

K... Here goes.

There are a few problems the officers have been fielding with this whole idea for a while.

1. - We started out as a casual guild, and have many casual players. Many of our players don't raid for one reason or another, so we may not be able to field as many raids as was proposed. We have nights now where the raid doesn't get filled, even by Mages (the overfilled class).

2. - We have many different time zones and raiding schedule availability to contend with. We have resolved to vary the raid schedule MORE, not less, giving people who can't get on until 9pm server the opportunity to get into a raid as well as those who have to be off by 10 or 11pm server. This has not been effectively done yet, but we are working on it. We also have people with RL things scheduled (meetings, choir, school) on certain days, so having "Thursday" be our consistant off day (or any other day) might screw those who only have "Thursday" available, since this is the only guild where they have a chance to raid with a schedule like that.

3. We have many levels of playing skills and gear in the guild, so we need to continue running the smaller instances and MC to gear up newer people. (I didn't use the "A" word). To this end, it is not necessary for every guildie to make every raid, sometimes supporting the guild includes queueing for a raid to offer your support if needed, but allowing the raid slot to stay open for somebody who needs the gear more. We've thrown out the idea of splitting MC into two parts again (which was met with negativity) so that undergeared players have the opportunity to get geared before hitting Rags and dieing viciously in a fire, having only done 2000 damage total. This could easily be done in conjuction with an ony raid or something else short.

4. - We are trying to get multiple instances going at once to allow for our further expansion. If we stay as we are, when we hit 25-man instances, many of our regular raiders will be left out. If we expand to do a 40 and a 20 at the same time, we could have more than one 25-man raid going in the future. And even a double 40 raid. As long as we have the raid leaders (it's back to raid leaders) we should be able to run these, but we often have a lack of signups, or many don't show (especially if they are queued). If you are queued for a raid, please be online for invites, as you may be pulled into the raid. Nothing is more annoying to a raid leader (nearly nothing) as having 30 people queued, yet still having to go outside guild to fill a raid slot, and this has happened!

I occasionally lead a raid, but my availability has been shot to dirt and I don't have my schedule far enough in advance to sign up for raids half the time, never mind posting a raid to lead.

Please take these points into consideration before we call for a rally to the new raid schedule. We do not want to create a solid raiding core of people who exclusively can come to the raids, we want to continue to be a guild where everybody can get the gear and skills to raid the higher instances with us as their schedule permits. I think it's healthy for us as a guild to be without a few key players from raid to raid, to allow some less experienced players to try their hand at the role. We are not actually in a race to complete the learning of BWL in record server time, we are walking a line in trying to allow people to gear up, and learn raid skills, as well as introducing new content to keep the seasoned raiders from getting bored.

**Amrod** · 10-24-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Anah

Please take these points into consideration before we call for a rally to the new raid schedule. We do not want to create a solid raiding core of people who exclusively can come to the raids, we want to continue to be a guild where everybody can get the gear and skills to raid the higher instances with us as their schedule permits. I think it's healthy for us as a guild to be without a few key players from raid to raid, to allow some less experienced players to try their hand at the role. We are not actually in a race to complete the learning of BWL in record server time, we are walking a line in trying to allow people to gear up, and learn raid skills, as well as introducing new content to keep the seasoned raiders from getting bored.

Couldn't agree more.

With 2 jobs and a PhD program, I'm lucky if I get to make it on 2-3 nights per week. I'm in it for the fun and the cool people, not the title. If I'd wanted to go from Razor to Nef in 2 weeks, I would have applied to Havok (though I doubt I would have gotten in, lol). That's not why most of us are here.

We'll get there as long as we keep things in perspective, stay calm and focus. Patience is a virtue.

**Kedera** · 10-24-2006, 11:47 AM

Well said Anah, I agree with you, and it's one of the best things about TG in my opinion.

**dreamchaser** · 10-24-2006, 12:02 PM

I agree whole heartedly with both Anah and Amrod, i joined TG for the people and fun atmosphere, killing giant dragons nad maybe a cool purple piece along the way. I think for alot of people, and i know for me personally i come home after a hard day of RL, i work in a high stress research lab, i'm in nursing school, i get home at night and like to log on to unwind, relax, kill the bad guy (becuase what better way to take out ones stress and frustration), hang out with my TG buddies and call it a night, adn i could be wrong but I think alot of people do this. Weekends are different adn i don't mind doing the big raids, but to expect raids to be filled 6 nights a week is a bit of a tall order methinks, though that might just be me. There is a certain amount of pressure that goes along with that as well i think. Its almost like another job iwth a day off. I think we've been progressing at a great pace, and in the past month or so, more important than anything, I"ve really seen the guild work together as a unit when in the big instances, even during moments of extreme frustration and shall we say "tense moments". This past Sunday night in BWL i have to say was one of the best times I've had raiding with you guys yet, the atmosphere was wonderful, very laid back, everyone was just having fun, and we did great i think! I hope i haven't overstepped bounds, not my intent, i am not one to typically say a whole lot,but we we keep striving to work together like we have been, and keep focus and perspective, but not try to overdo it and go too big too fast (there are other guilds for things like that, i don't think that is the code for TG..but again, i may be wrong) we'll get there, and it will feel much more gratifying than pushing.

**TG_Bear** · 10-24-2006, 12:22 PM

I throw in my two cents here as one of the knuckledraggers who gets asked to tank something virtually every time I log on. Expanding the raid schedule so that we have a something going virtually every night is insane. Real life obligations aside, people need some downtime. Farming, grinding or just errand running are all real obligations within the World of Warcraft. That stuff is a welcome break for many because it doesn't require a 2-4 hour time committment. I'm really concerned that we're already pushing the limits of guild capability with the current schedule.

From a selfish point of view I'll say this, it's easy to say lets add another raid when you're not a raid leader, tank or priest. I'm not sure you have the proper appreciation for just how much effort goes into those roles. Yes, I speak from experience not just as a tank but as a prior RL. In my former life I've lead raids in every instance except BWL. It's just not a fun roll and if you haven't done it you can't imagine the neverending stream of bull**** messages and issues you need to deal with. There's a reason I've never volunteered to lead a raid here, I'm still recovering :P

Finally, I find it mind boggling how a guild that's comprised of mainly working professionals and parents could maintain a schedule of nightly raids. Do people really have spouses, girlfriends or partners that don't give a crap that you want to spend 3-5 hours every night "raiding"? I could probably maintain that schedule for about a week before my wife blew a gasket.

**Amrod** · 10-24-2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by TG_Bear

Finally, I find it mind boggling how a guild that's comprised of mainly working professionals and parents could maintain a schedule of nightly raids. Do people really have spouses, girlfriends or partners that don't give a crap that you want to spend 3-5 hours every night "raiding"? I could probably maintain that schedule for about a week before my wife blew a gasket.

If I want to be physically able to father children someday, I need to be away from the game for a solid portion of the week. My girlfriend is 300/300 eye-daggers.

Also, a note to proponents of more raiding: No one here is saying you shouldn't try adding more raids to the schedule. We're just saying "don't be surprised if you don't necessarily see us consistently on the signups".

**RanulfWolfSage** · 10-24-2006, 12:31 PM

As one of those who is/was WAY behind the gear-curve I can tell you:
a) skipping MC entirely will never happen
b) MC is not the only way to progress in this game
c) if you check the schedule you'll see we're starting to change the days when MC takes place. This helps people who cant always get in on Sat.

You really have to look at every avenue to better your toon; Not just one dungeon. Also, as of NOW, MC is largely a place for new 60's to gain gear VERY fast. It's quite common to see people get 2 to 3 set-pieces (and set-pieces arent really even as valuable as u think) in one evening. So, it doesnt take that many runs to really improve yourself.

Of course, much of this depends on your class and what your role actually is. Also, which places you intend on spending a lot of your time.

There is no "desperate need" to complete a set. That is simply a desire to, so you can say you did. It doesnt make u a weaker player in many cases.
__________________

a. Good, glad to hear it.
b. No it's not, never said it is. However, as far as high end raid instances go, MANY of them require high fire resistance, which MC is a prime location for obtaining such items. Also, when I'm still wearing green lvl 50ish pieces because I haven't gotten anything better yet, getting gear like the sets that drop in MC really help. Not to mention that completing is desired for the set bonuses (Rogue Tier 1 8/8 - Heals rogue for 500 health when you vanish), not just as a source of pride as you suggest. Also, other than perhaps ZG, as a rogue with barely enough FR to go into MC, I can't go into many of the other raids, because I don't have the FR necessary. The few that I can go in like ZG (Not sure if i qualify for AQ), are always on the same nights that Dream has class (I know, no ones fault but mine), so I can't sign up for fear of not being there in time. When I'm told by leaders of the guild, that I'm only allowed pretty much in 2 raids, one of which is often on nights I can't attened, perhaps you can understand the frustration behind my defense of MC, since it's really the only high-end raid I "qualify" for.
c. I agree with moving it around a little, just the thought of a raid that can keep you online till Midnight or even 1am EST on Sunday, is not a pleasant thought for those of us that go into work early on a Monday morning, that is all.

Didn't mean to sound negative or angry or anything, just a bit frustrated when it looks like the idea of skipping the only raid I qualify for and can attend is thrown out on the table. Yes I know I could always try to find PUG raids, but seriously, part of the reason for raiding is to have fun/spend time with your guildmates, and that can't really be done in a PUG raid. I was honestly just trying to throw out another POV, that's all.

As far as the main point of this thread, many of us do have lives, and although I agree we need to try to move forward, such an aggressive schedule for a non-hardcore guild is a tall order.

I already gave my 2 cents last post, so I guess this is my third and final cent, eh?

<casts vanish then sprints away from the thread>

**Muirc** · 10-24-2006, 01:01 PM

Although, we won’t admit it there is a core group of raiders that help push TG further in end game which need to be recognized and rewarded with new content. I know it would be nice to get everyone geared before we move on to another instance but it is in fact unlikely.

I, myself, have been raiding MC since the initial joint TG/VB days and find myself wanting to more. I haven’t gotten all my tier 1 as hunter gear is a crutch but I’m not in it for the gear. I’m really to a point where I am bored with MC but go along to help gear everyone else. And I know it isn’t a race but it really is unfair to everyone that has help push TG to move further by learning new content and dying countless times(repair bills, mats, potions, ammo…etc.) and is wanting to see new content by slowing the pace of BWL. If it wasn’t for these raiders there would be no 1-day MC clearing so please take that into consideration as well.

I know there was talk about how you reward raiders for going to BWL . Well the reward for me is the challenge and the new content I am able to see. I’m not saying we should stop going to MC as it is necessary but maybe it is time people start taking BWL seriously. And by seriously, I don’t mean raiding it 3 times a week but signing up for the two days it is on the schedule so we can push forward.

Just my two cents.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 01:38 PM

Two solid days in BWL instead of one horrible night and one good one would go along way Muirc. I do understand what you mean though. I don't think anyone was suggesting triming BWL down to less than that.

Anah, Thanks for keeping us informed with what the officers are thinking.

**Sacredlord** · 10-24-2006, 01:47 PM

Muirc you said everything, thank you. Although I’m not a raid leader I’m pretty sure I helped in BwL.

For those who call themselves "key classes", try to raid anything without mages, uh?

How about pallies? Decurse and heal yourselves while your druids will have to decurse you all... get you mages/locks/rogues dead when they don´t have salvation to reduce their threats...

"Key" classes? Sorry but this is a wrong concept, it’s all about balance...

Someone said we’d have a raid everyday, I believe he wasn’t didn´t read all posts in this thread because this was already agreed... geez... take a look on our current schedule! We have raids everyday guys...

Another person complained about thursday being a day off. It is not! I wrote that way, but explaining it could be any 20 man instance, PvP, Lords, Onyxia or whatever is scheduled to do.

If you come here only to say: "Oh, it’s fine the way it is I don’t wanna raid more days...". Please, check the proposed schedule.

All I said is that monday COULD BE an additional day IF we get enough people online. OTHERWISE, we do ZG/AQ, stay with family, study, PvP, whatever they want/need to do.

SL.

**Gambit7** · 10-24-2006, 02:16 PM

I gotta throw in here that last night (Monday night) was one of the most productive "off-nights" I've ever seen.

-We one-timed Ony (granted, with a grp. of like 33 people)
-We pwned 3 Lords (one disappeared out of fear, 2 dropped epix)
-We went to ZG (dont know result because I stepped out early, but all aspects plus Hakkar was planned)

This was on a Monday night!
And to top it all off I could tell that the RL and many of the players were lovin it. Instead of frustration at not fillin a raid or not being able to do anything there was enjoyment.

Back to the timing, I stepped out for RL issues and was easily replace by someone who logged on late. So later raids DO work in many ways.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sacredlord

"Key" classes? Sorry but this is a wrong concept, it’s all about balance...

I don't think anyone was trying to belittle any other class or say someone was more important than the other. However, some of the fights have very heavy roles for certain classes. We saw how hard doing Razor was the other night with 2 hunters. Tank types, especially those the guild has spent considerable effort gearing, feel obligated to never miss raids. And while you could get by many fights without having a specific class its pretty tough to do most BWL fights without a couple decked out tanks. Just like it would be almost impossible to do Domo and Rags without mages.

Its not a selfish thing, but there are people here that have played a key role in almost every single "first" downing of a boss. They feel like they need to be here to help the guild.

And while you may be correct that the guild does often raid every day Sacred most of the people don't. Some of these raids are thrown together, many are scheduled. But there is a big difference at this point in going to AQ or ZG (where often times a number of the people are alts) and adding another night of 40 man raiding. For many these 20 mans are a breather. And for some like me who don't head into those instances as much, I enjoy not raiding some nights.

All that being said I'd love to see an "optional" 3rd BWL day and if there's not enough going off to hit AQ or ZG.

I do not speak for everyone, only myself. If others feel different and additional 40 man raids are offered we'll have to see how it all plays out. I'm not trying to be negative. I love what we're doing in BWL - and I can't wait to see more. But I do think before we start adding another day into BWL we should try and get 2 real nights in there with solid groups.

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