Re: I've decided: DKP sux

**Gaviin** · 10-22-2006, 02:48 PM

Having a DKP system is very good. Our DKP system could use some help as we progress. As has been mentioned, it provides very little incentive to people to show up for new and difficult boss fights. If people "know" that we'll be spending four hours and *maybe* downing a single boss, they are much less likely to show up because the DKP-per-hour is low (perhaps zero). If we provided some sort of reward for people putting in the effort to learn these new fights, it could only help. Obviously some would say that we shouldn't have to provide this sort of incentive and that people should enjoy the experience, but let's face reality here.

The fact of the matter is we're having trouble filling our BWL raids. If one little additional bonus is what it takes to fill them, then what's the problem? I think it's the fairest thing anyway. DKP is intended to reward those who put in the most effort, not those who see the most loot drop. Those two *can* coincide, but they quite often do not.

I also agree that there should be DKP given for DE'd items, maybe eight DKP split amongst the raid. All this talk of DKP sinks and "we can't do that because it's zero-sum", I think, is silly. Our system won't break down if we make little changes like this. It will simply evolve, hopefully for the better.

**Saril** · 10-22-2006, 04:41 PM

Sorry, I'm missing something - why will BC make DKP obsolete? Thanks in advance.

**Sacredlord** · 10-22-2006, 05:09 PM

TG DKP system is fine.

I think two changes should be done:

1 - Extra DKP every time we kill a boss for the first time;

2 - Whenever a piece of your class set drops, everyone else but the one that gets the item gain 1 DKP.

Just to explain better suggestion #2: If judgment legs drop from Ragnaros, and Saril gets it, all other pallies gain 1 DKP.

Suggestion #1 is vital to keep people interested in the raid progress.

And to answer Saril... no, BC won’t make our system obsolete.

Before thinking about BC’s gear we should concentrate in finishing BwL (at least).

How will you guys do a new BC instance without appropriate gear?

Let’s take one step at a time!

SL.

**Pistos** · 10-22-2006, 05:14 PM

I agree that DKP is a necessary evil. And our DKP system is a good one, but I do wish that people wouldn't act like it was carved on tablets and handed down to a bearded guy next to a burning bush. Just because something is working doesn't mean that it can't be better. This goes for our DKP system, our boss strats, and anything else that we do.

We've had some of these exact ideas posted before. We've had little conversations before, during, and after raids about some of these ideas. Suggestions are not personal attacks on a system or the person that came up with the system originally or the person that took that system and implemented it here. They are just suggestions, usually by dedicated guildies that want TG to succeed.

**Silchar** · 10-22-2006, 07:37 PM

I feel that our DKP system is fair and I would like to thank all those that strive to keep it working so well.

**Gambit7** · 10-22-2006, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Saril

Sorry, I'm missing something - why will BC make DKP obsolete? Thanks in advance.

Reason why I was thinking this way is:

BC will be mostly 5, 10, and 25-man instances.
As it stands NOW, we dont use DKP in small groups and 20-mans. We use need/greed and tend to talk through our loot (like we should do).

With smaller groups, it's much easier to "control" who gets what loot and to coordinate how many times someone does a particular run, maintain raid balance or dynamics, etc.

SOOOOO... obviously, suddenly using DKP in small instanced BC dungeons would be actually implementing a rule we dont currently use, and probably would be a bit too cumbersome to use in such situations. (every group leader would have to learn to distribute and subtract DKP, etc. As well, the DKP for the new items doesnt even really exist yet) Would u not have DKP and then suddenly implement it a month later? Probably not as that wouldnt be very fair.

As for what happens to DKP for 40-mans once BC comes out? Kinda tough to tell, but seeing as how much of the gear-gains people will be making will be OUTSIDE the 40-mans, obviously DKP will obtain less importance... making need/greed the ULTIMATE truly deciding factor anyways.

It's conceivable someone with 200 DKP could gear themselves up outside the 40-mans without even DKP raiding that much. Then stepping inside a 40-man and not really having anything to spend said DKP on. Understand? Much of the spent DKP would be for side-grades or just working on a set, leaving a higher probability of gimping someone else just for the sake of spending DKP that has suddenly lost its value. So, in order to protect those in DKP-holes - the DKP system would probably have to be scrapped or altered, even for the 40-mans. (gasp)

If we MAINTAINED the DKP system only for 40-mans it would be unnecessary for the above reason. Who would spend it? Only recruits and people who are filling gear gaps. And realizing that they can get equivalent NON-dkp gear they probably WOULDNT spend the DKP, thereby hording it until god knows when or letting stuff get DEed. Understand? So, unless they increase the stats on tiered gear, there really isnt much reason to fight over DKP at all.

Now, why am I re-hashing this? Because it's important... and a lot of how people will be earning/spending DKP NOW depends on what the future holds. In a perfect world this wouldnt matter, but it does in ours.

We will either have to give out DKP for DEed items (to encourage 40-man raid attendance) when BC comes out or scrap it altogether in favor of an officer/CL controlled need/greed system, IMO.

But hey, that's what forums are for... We're working together here just like we do in-game. I find these discussions enlightening and helpful. Sorry if I peeved anyone. I tend to constantly grasp for the greater good/goal, whether it be a boss we're tryin to kill, a new instance, or a better DKP system. Unfortunately, that sometimes means other people get angry.

**Ashenhart** · 10-22-2006, 09:33 PM

One of the things my friends guild did while they were learning Naxx was to offer DKP for those that showed up to raid till they killed "said" boss. Once that boss was downe then the attendance DKP was removed but the next boss on the list was considered "first kill/learning"

**Pistos** · 10-23-2006, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

But hey, that's what forums are for... We're working together here just like we do in-game. I find these discussions enlightening and helpful. Sorry if I peeved anyone. I tend to constantly grasp for the greater good/goal, whether it be a boss we're tryin to kill, a new instance, or a better DKP system. Unfortunately, that sometimes means other people get angry.

You and I have bantered back and forth on this Siu. I also like these discussions because I am of the opinion that we should constantly be considering ideas to make things better. I hope everyone looks at the conversations in the forums as what they are and not as anything to get angry over.

**Lepmesiah** · 10-23-2006, 03:14 AM

Building off others ideas is always the best way to go. I don't take an offense to much of anything. Discussions like these are always good, I don't think anyone is singling you out or should for voicing your opinion.

**Arkamis** · 10-23-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sacredlord

TG DKP system is fine.

I think two changes should be done:

1 - Extra DKP every time we kill a boss for the first time;

2 - Whenever a piece of your class set drops, everyone else but the one that gets the item gain 1 DKP.

Just to explain better suggestion #2: If judgment legs drop from Ragnaros, and Saril gets it, all other pallies gain 1 DKP.

Suggestion #1 is vital to keep people interested in the raid progress.

And to answer Saril... no, BC won’t make our system obsolete.

Before thinking about BC’s gear we should concentrate in finishing BwL (at least).

How will you guys do a new BC instance without appropriate gear?

Let’s take one step at a time!

SL.

Neither of these things can be done while maintaining a zero-sum DKP system.

**Pistos** · 10-23-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Arkamis

Neither of these things can be done while maintaining a zero-sum DKP system.

This is the party line. Is there any reason why we must maintain the zero-sum aspect of the system besides we just wanna? Is there no room for sliding out of the zero-sum to include other factors like learning a new fight or de'd items? I'm smart enough to realize that you can't have zero-sum if you have the other factors. Any time conversations like these come up that is the response, but that response doesn't actually fix any of the other problems. Is there any discussions about allowing us to get away from the zero-sum totality or is this just the way its going to stay and its not open for any kind of suggestions?

**Gaviin** · 10-23-2006, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Pistos

This is the party line. Is there any reason why we must maintain the zero-sum aspect of the system besides we just wanna? Is there no room for sliding out of the zero-sum to include other factors like learning a new fight or de'd items? I'm smart enough to realize that you can't have zero-sum if you have the other factors. Any time conversations like these come up that is the response, but that response doesn't actually fix any of the other problems. Is there any discussions about allowing us to get away from the zero-sum totality or is this just the way its going to stay and its not open for any kind of suggestions?

Precisely what I was thinkin', P.

We all know that the things we're discussing would involve diverging from zero-sum (the horror!). The point is, I don't think it's a big deal. The system won't suddenly explode if the sum of everyone's DKP equals two or 10 or 3000 instead of zero. It's totally arbitrary. Making the system more equitable is what's important.

**beep** · 10-23-2006, 11:09 PM

FWIW, changing the current system IS a big deal.

Your guild officers burned many, many hours of effort to research, refine and implement our current system. We looked at every scheme being used. IMO, our system has done exactly what we wanted it to do...to give us an equitable, rule-based system to distribute epic gear. Even as we speak, we have a group looking at adjusting the class priorities for items to keep things in line with our preferences.

It is NOT a perfect system. None of them are, but it is closer to handling our needs than alternative systems. Discussion, questions and suggestions are great...truly! But to open the thread with ""I've decided: DKP sux" turns me off from the get go. There is no room in that opening for constructive dialogue.

So far, nothing I've seen has convinced me that our current DKP system is broken and needs either replacement or major overhaul. Even so, I don't want in any way to cut off serious discussion and innovation where it will actually make things better without creating other problems.

It's also helpful to remember that the DKP you accumulate is used ONLY to determine who has priority for an item that you elect to bid on. It isn't a currency that is used to "buy" gear as is typical of bid systems. We reduce your DKP totals when you get an item as a step to let others move up the priority queue. The same sort of logic applies to the "one epic per raid" rule (which has exceptions, as you know, such as avoiding DE when someone can use the item). Well-geared, regular raiders will almost always have more DKP to give them a higher priority for gear. That's how it is supposed to work. New raiders start at zero...then accrue DKP for their first three raids...giving them a more than fair shot at starting to acquire needed items that drop over many other more experienced players. Having negative DKP means you got gear. Having more DKP means that you may have priority for something you want. The number (positive or negative) is not like money...it determines your place in line.

As has been pointed out, learning new bosses...with many wipes and little epic loot...is one of the "weak" points of a zero-sum system. We have worried over that for every instance and every boss all the way through MC and now BWL. We also have gotten over that by the persistence and teamwork of our players who can see beyond the need for "treats" to do something we want to do. Don't read me wrong...I like gear as much as the next player and want to get it and use it to do more in-game to help us progress. My point here is that item-based DKP awards has "soft" spots, but is still preferred (imo) to true bid-based system.

As far as DKP after the expansion pack has arrived, we will react and adjust after we see how things REALLY work there.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by beep

FWIW, changing the current system IS a big deal.

Your guild officers burned many, many hours of effort to research, refine and implement our current system. We looked at every scheme being used. IMO, our system has done exactly what we wanted it to do...to give us an equitable, rule-based system to distribute epic gear. Even as we speak, we have a group looking at adjusting the class priorities for items to keep things in line with our preferences.

It is NOT a perfect system. None of them are, but it is closer to handling our needs than alternative systems. Discussion, questions and suggestions are great...truly! But to open the thread with ""I've decided: DKP sux" turns me off from the get go. There is no room in that opening for constructive dialogue.

So far, nothing I've seen has convinced me that our current DKP system is broken and needs either replacement or major overhaul. Even so, I don't want in any way to cut off serious discussion and innovation where it will actually make things better without creating other problems.

It's also helpful to remember that the DKP you accumulate is used ONLY to determine who has priority for an item that you elect to bid on. It isn't a currency that is used to "buy" gear as is typical of bid systems. We reduce your DKP totals when you get an item as a step to let others move up the priority queue. The same sort of logic applies to the "one epic per raid" rule (which has exceptions, as you know, such as avoiding DE when someone can use the item). Well-geared, regular raiders will almost always have more DKP to give them a higher priority for gear. That's how it is supposed to work. New raiders start at zero...then accrue DKP for their first three raids...giving them a more than fair shot at starting to acquire needed items that drop over many other more experienced players. Having negative DKP means you got gear. Having more DKP means that you may have priority for something you want. The number (positive or negative) is not like money...it determines your place in line.

As has been pointed out, learning new bosses...with many wipes and little epic loot...is one of the "weak" points of a zero-sum system. We have worried over that for every instance and every boss all the way through MC and now BWL. We also have gotten over that by the persistence and teamwork of our players who can see beyond the need for "treats" to do something we want to do. Don't read me wrong...I like gear as much as the next player and want to get it and use it to do more in-game to help us progress. My point here is that item-based DKP awards has "soft" spots, but is still preferred (imo) to true bid-based system.

As far as DKP after the expansion pack has arrived, we will react and adjust after we see how things REALLY work there.

Thanks for your response Beep. I agree 100% that our system works better than a true bid-based system. But as you acknowledge one of the shortcomings is in the learning new bosses. Another is for DE'd items. I am happy to hear that the officers welcome constructive discussion. Personally its not about accumulating a warchest of DKP but about giving an incentive for others to sign up and help us learn new bosses. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I just don't understand how giving out DKP for learning a boss even if that means that we get out of a zero-sum is going to completely throw our system into chaos.

**Sajier** · 10-24-2006, 11:04 AM

I love our system, but I agree that the two issues that Pistos is pointing to are issues. Watching us struggle to get people for the first bunch of raids in BWL was painful. People who were there all those attempts worked hard to learn the new fights and yet people who weren't there for the work of learning the fight have gotten almost the same DKP cause they were there the next week after we killed X boss the first time.

Working through massive amounts of attempts on a new boss deserves at least some reward too, because those people are trying to help the guild just as much if not more than the people who show up once we get the first the kill.

Just as a bit of proof for what I am saying:
8/18 - 30/40(+4)
8/22 - 17/40(+2)
9/1 - 34/40(+2)
9/8 - 35/40(+3)
9/10 - 34/40(+7) - First Kill of Razor
9/15 - 38/40(+6)
9/17 - 38/40 (+8)

I really think those numbers speak for themselves.

I think the people who put in the work to learn a fight deserve to be rewarded.

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