Re: I've decided: DKP sux

**OscarTheCouch** · 10-24-2006, 12:00 PM

If you have a problem with loot whores then why dont you make a rule where if someone wants more than one item its up to the discretion of the raid leader and class leader. Thats what we do in our guild, that way ppl can use their DPK as they wish, but if they start whoring then the raid leader and or the class leader can say "no this loot will go to the more in need, even though you have the most dkp". It doesnt happen very often but that makes for a stonger guild gearing up the ppl that need it most. We have no problems with these decisions really cuz we dont have loot whores. And if ppl are being loot whores we just stop taking them to raids till they figure it out.

**RanulfWolfSage** · 10-24-2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by OscarTheCouch

If you have a problem with loot whores then why dont you make a rule where if someone wants more than one item its up to the discretion of the raid leader and class leader. Thats what we do in our guild, that way ppl can use their DPK as they wish, but if they start whoring then the raid leader and or the class leader can say "no this loot will go to the more in need, even though you have the most dkp". It doesnt happen very often but that makes for a stonger guild gearing up the ppl that need it most. We have no problems with these decisions really cuz we dont have loot whores. And if ppl are being loot whores we just stop taking them to raids till they figure it out.

AMEN! I've never personally experienced this in our guild, of course I haven't been raiding for very long. But if it is truely going on, then it's up to the leaders to make decisions like this.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by OscarTheCouch

If you have a problem with loot whores then why dont you make a rule where if someone wants more than one item its up to the discretion of the raid leader and class leader. Thats what we do in our guild, that way ppl can use their DPK as they wish, but if they start whoring then the raid leader and or the class leader can say "no this loot will go to the more in need, even though you have the most dkp". It doesnt happen very often but that makes for a stonger guild gearing up the ppl that need it most. We have no problems with these decisions really cuz we dont have loot whores. And if ppl are being loot whores we just stop taking them to raids till they figure it out.

I don't think that's really been an issue here. Everyone is real interested in helping others and keeping a fair balance of gearing themselves and gearing everyone else. That being said the DKP system does work and does help us distribute items to those that do need them. And the way we use the system (passing to MTs first, allowing people to complete sets, passing on items so others get upgrades they really need) makes TG a very friendly home.

My main point is that nobody is doing anything wrong. But a little added incentive to help us progress (ie. minimal DKP for learning new fights) and a little added incentive to keep interest in MC and help gear newer people (ie. minimal DKP for de'd items) seems like a good idea to me. Again I realize that this will throw the zero-sum out of whack. I can appreciate the time spent researching and implementing the system. But I still don't really see why we can't make modifications if those modifications don't have large negative consequences.

**Gambit7** · 10-24-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by OscarTheCouch

If you have a problem with loot whores then why dont you make a rule where if someone wants more than one item its up to the discretion of the raid leader and class leader. Thats what we do in our guild, that way ppl can use their DPK as they wish, but if they start whoring then the raid leader and or the class leader can say "no this loot will go to the more in need, even though you have the most dkp". It doesnt happen very often but that makes for a stonger guild gearing up the ppl that need it most. We have no problems with these decisions really cuz we dont have loot whores. And if ppl are being loot whores we just stop taking them to raids till they figure it out.

Part of the "loot-whoring" issue is the propensity for people to work maniacially towards their set-pieces no matter what. TG is like everyone says, VERY good at being friendly and helping people out; but, that doesnt mean we're perfect. The fact that there IS a set-piece system will automatically create a loot-whorish problem.

Example: Someone in near full tier 2 may decide he wants a tier 1 helm and snatch it from a guy who's just starting in tier 0.

Another example: U've got the uber +dmg/healing neckpiece from MC, then u run lords and the wavefront necklace drops. Well, the wavefront is on par with the MC neckpiece, but different stats. SOOO, u roll on it even though there are those in your raid still with Arcane Crystal Pendants... lol This can also happen the other way around. (and no Luna, this does not apply to you because u had Choker of Enlightenment and Wavefront is better then that piece)

Stuff like this irritates me to no end. I just sit there in my mind calculating the dmg and/or stats that will be lost because another raider couldve improved where another just sidegraded.

Anyways, it rarely happens in plain sight... but it happens to everyone. I will tell you, that the majority of MY gear was had because of other people not wanting to spend their DKP on it (this is NOT good). Yes, I benefited from it - but I KNOW there were others that could've also.

And on the flip-side, those with LOADS of DKP dont mind spending it on items they dont really need, but someone else will.
Their "Faith" in the dkp-system is all they need to clear their conscience and to justify their actions.
Granted, we shouldnt really call people dkp-whores who have lots of it, as it may simply be a result of them passing nicely to someone who needs loot. The issue HERE is lack of new content where high-dkp people can bid.

My main point here is, DKP shouldnt be the only deciding factor. Need/Greed should always be an element alongside DKP, not an element pushed aside.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

Example: Someone in near full tier 2 may decide he wants a tier 1 helm and snatch it from a guy who's just starting in tier 0.

Have you seen this happen here? I know when I was in Fabled Few for a short time this happened alot. But here I can recall numerous instances of people passing (Krishler, Manny, Max, Luna are just 4 I can think of off the top of my head) and I can't think of one instance where someone with a T2 piece took a T1 piece over someone that could use it.

I don't disagree that any DKP system brings with it some rigidity for loot distribution. Its kind of the point though to "reward" the people who put in the time. But as long as everyone keeps doing what they are doing and thinking of the guild as a whole then I think we're doing better than almost every other guild out there.

From my experience in the Priest class people have often passed on items to others when they could use the upgrade more (Krishler did this for me when I went from [item]Devout Skirt[/item] to [item]Leggings of Transcendence[/item]). Initially we saw very few drops from MC but then that changed dramatically and we've been able to get everyone stuff they want. There are a few sidegrade pieces (ZG Bracers to T1 Bracers for example) but for the most part the upgrades have been pretty linear.

I do agree that everyone should be considerate but I would argue that we've seen a more considerate distribution with DKP that we would have had without it. Especially when you factor in the importance of getting the people that are pushing open the new content geared.

**Gambit7** · 10-24-2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pistos

Have you seen this happen here? I know when I was in Fabled Few for a short time this happened alot. But here I can recall numerous instances of people passing (Krishler, Manny, Max, Luna are just 4 I can think of off the top of my head) and I can't think of one instance where someone with a T2 piece took a T1 piece over someone that could use it.

I'm not sayin it happened here, just usin it as an example.

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

I'm not sayin it happened here, just usin it as an example.

Cool

**Gaviin** · 10-24-2006, 02:32 PM

What you don't realize, Pistos, is that the very fabric of the universe is woven around the zero-point of our DKP system. Little research has been done to determine exactly what would happen if we strayed from this path. Would the space-time continuum unravel? Would the universe collapse on itself? Would Shiro actually begin to smell *good*? Or would life simply continue as it has from the beginning of time? None can say for sure. But clearly we must not interfere with such things that are far above our plebeian mental grasp. The consequences could be dire.

In fact, just to prove that all is well with the cosmos, I shall add up the current DKP of every single entry on the DKP site (including inactive members)...

Let it be known! Our zero-sum DKP system adds up to.......

-42.41?

/whimper

**Pistos** · 10-24-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by msheahen

... Would Shiro actually begin to smell *good*? ...

Let it be known! Our zero-sum DKP system adds up to.......

-42.41?

/whimper

I think I did notice a pleasant aroma the other night. I assumed it was Ili but her and Shiro did come into BWL about the same time....... could it be?!?!

Seriously though, if our zero-sum DKP system isn't adding up to zero now what are the negative effects? We're already going to have a large gap between old and new people no matter what we do (new people are getting gear much faster and getting into the negative quickly while old people are slowly climbing). So I'll keep the conversation going

.

**Tonk** · 10-25-2006, 10:05 AM

where does it show the DKP balance?

NOTE: EXAMPLE: when doing loot... say a MC run had a total 176 DKP... with 39 members... that equals 4.076923 (how do u overscore.... that is repeating tho) per person... the site only registers to .1... so with over 766 total raids... and AVERAGING an average .055 margin of error..... that totals 42.13 dkp...... =P

**Tonk** · 10-25-2006, 10:32 AM

when the off-amount gets big enough.. it should(dont quote me) be dispersed amoung all the ACTIVE raid members

**Gaviin** · 10-25-2006, 10:55 AM

Actually the site records hundredths also (i.e. goes out to two decimal places). So your margin of error there is wrong, but of course the overall concept is true: things won't add up exactly due to uneven division of DKP on a per raid basis. But again, it doesn't really matter *why* we're not adding to zero... we aren't. The point is we are not zero-sum, and clearly that doesn't matter. So why would it be a crime if we tweaked the system in order to achieve other benefits? That's what I was getting at.

As for showing the DKP balance, I just copy/pasted to an Excel spreadsheet and put a sum on the column that contains all members' current DKP level.

And Chair, how do you "average an average" of something?

**Gaviin** · 10-25-2006, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Chair

when the off-amount gets big enough.. it should(dont quote me) be dispersed amoung all the ACTIVE raid members

What about when the off-amount is negative (as it is now)? Do we dock people?

No one has yet given a reasonable explanation as to why we have to be exactly zero-sum. The only thing I've seen is "we put a lot of thought into it, so we shouldn't change it."

**orion808** · 10-25-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by msheahen

What about when the off-amount is negative (as it is now)? Do we dock people?

No one has yet given a reasonable explanation as to why we have to be exactly zero-sum. The only thing I've seen is "we put a lot of thought into it, so we shouldn't change it."

I'm currently looking into something since you pointed this out. Give me time, I think something good might come of this.

On a side-note, we have 3 officers currently looking into Loot Priority on a class-to-class basis. They will also be handling some of the DKP system's shortcomings. They need time, however.

Personally, I think the debate here is indeed a good one, but I think the time has come to stop talking and start working...let the officers take this and run with it. In essence, we heard you...

**Pistos** · 10-25-2006, 02:05 PM

Thanks Crebis.

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