Re: Some thoughts after a hiatus

**Amrod** · 11-08-2006, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Anah

those who aren't signing up can't complain when they are stuck in the queue again when they do sign up.

This sounds like the best plan of action to my ears.

I'm not actively raiding right now, so I was happy to see that a couple more hunters have joined the flock, especially with me not being the only one currently busy with RL. When I begin raiding again, I fully expect to have to rotate with the other members of the class, as is fair/just/right. It's also really good for the guild, since more than a minimum amount of people will be prepped for pulling/class tactics when signups are slim.

Introducing a you-made-your-bed-now-you-have-to-sleep-in-it situation is exactly the kick in the pants that this guild needs. Rotation is a good thing, and something that we need to embrace. We're not paying salaries, so i don't see how having a surplus of players is a bad thing, especially when an AQ/ZG is always a viable option on heavy signup days.

**Ricca** · 11-08-2006, 11:04 AM

Nice post Bear !!!

**Gambit7** · 11-08-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Anah

Even mages have been short on signups Doom. We were saturated to the point of Mages leaving because they didn't have enough raid time, then we can't get enough to show up. A few are still showing up to everything they can, others have cut back and leave us needing more. Non-guildies/alts have seen a lot of raiding time lately, maybe we need to push those up, but then those who aren't signing up can't complain when they are stuck in the queue again when they do sign up.

-This has been a VERY rare occurence and in all likelihood is now a complete NON-occurence with Krisy now being Ony/Bwl attuned and Deleo a permanent guildie. Also remember, a lot of mages are playing with alts to take up the slack in the other classes (yourself, crim, zedd, alava... etc) and/or make raid-space. Zeeg of course is waiting for BWL to get moving I assume, where his skills will make the most impact... especially AQ40 and Naxx. (without BWL there will be no AQ40/Naxx of course)

There is no problem in the mage class specifically. If it's manifested in the mage-class then it's a guild problem as a whole.-

Aside from that... signups are a problem somewhat because we cant adequately provide content. On the flipside: You cant expect the usual suspects to be able to raid MC, BWL, Ony, and the plethora of 20-mans themselves. The obvious solution is to fill the voids with good soldiers so we can provide enough content to ultimately give EVERYONE a chance to raid.

TG's prior mantra of "not being too big" is basically what's gotten us into trouble in BWL. Because we dont have permanent ROSTERS (and i believe we shouldnt of course, that would really suk) we simply cannot field enough people to fill all the raids we want to do. This is why I dont harp on the people who dont show up, nor have sympathy for them - it's a non-issue. A standard. A guild constant. RL stuff will always be a factor. So, it's not even a part of my thought-process. And even if everyone decided to show up, we'd still not really have enough people nor be able to sustain a viable/productive raid schedule over time.

Again, I use myself as an example. I used to get a bit peaved about not being able to get into a lot of MC runs because of a flooded class. The main reason behind this as stated by all was we needed another 40-man. Enter BWL. NOW I'm not concerned with this obviously because I have another place to go, more content, more time to play with the people I like to play with. But what happens now? We dont quite have enough people to do it all - plain and simple. So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I at least still have gear needs from MC! What about the people who are geared-out already and have been asked to give up their spots?? What are they to do? This is where the sympathy should be directed.

Officers have spoken of "the sweet spot". Obviously this is NOT it. We just need a few more guildies in key spots and we'll probably be there. Maybe it'll come from the mages, who's alts can fill spots that other mages can pick up. Maybe it'll come from raw recruitment. Maybe it'll come from lowbies who get to 60. Who knows.

Point is... once the guild roster is straight we'll be able to field raids with ease, giving more people more opportunities to raid and raid effectively - Whether it be MC, Ony, whatever. I envision 2x20 mans will be a reality also when this happens. This is a good thing. Because if there's a point where the signup is flooded on occassion then there's still an avenue to go to. Especially for the lesser-geared guildies. As well, it gives more of an opportunity for new RLs to emerge from the pack.

And of course there's age-old BC debate. I know people are all like "wait and see". I understand that. But everything we see points to the fact that we will be OOZING content that we wont be able to do as a guild because of lack of numbers even for BWL. So waiting and seeing kind of doesnt apply as far as straightening out the roster. We'll have 4 40-man raids to fill by then most likely (ony, mc, bwl, aq40and/or naxx), unknown numbers of 5,10, and 25 man raids along with the usual 20-mans; not to mention the losses due to the LEVEL grind.

You honestly think what we've got now will be able to tackle all that and be successful?

In closing, if indeed TG does get bigger. We need more support and participation from the members. The forums are really lacking in these regards. You cant have a couple hundred people in a guild and only 10 people posting, voices dont get heard that way. Also, having more supporting members wouldnt hurt. I know I'm not the only one who's had these thoughts. If you cant justify being a supporting member merely playing WoW, then I'd suggest dipping your head into one of the many other games TG hosts (after all it helps to take a break every once and a while).

Anyways, sorry Anah for hijacking your question to post all this

of course only the 1st part was in response to you. And if anyone is angered by my words... please dont be. If you are - that means you've misunderstood. Send me a PM if u need clarification.

Gambit

**TG_Bear** · 11-08-2006, 05:40 PM

Beep,

Thanks for the response, I think it's dialogue and open discussion like this that is going to get us over this hurdle and refocused on clearing BWL. With regards to your question "why does TG have to make a choice" I believe the answer is because it's the guild leaders that steer the ship. At this point, no single individual makes the choice of what we run or what gets scheduled. The only choice we have as individuals is whether we sign up for what's scheduled. Please don't misinterpret that, I'm not saying that member input isn't heard, considered or accomodated, my point is just that our guild leaders set the direction.

I agree completely that we can accomodate both groups but not under the current structure. The current structure has reached it's breaking point and is failing our best players. We don't have enough signing up for BWL and many of the folks running MC are sick to death of it. MC is a very necessary evil as it gears new members and those that have worked so hard to get to 60. I believe that every guild benefits from an influx of new talent so this can't change. However, stagnation means death in a MMORPG. The simple truth is that it's much easier for someone with all their Tier 1 gear to gag down their 50th MC run if they know they're going to get a shot at BWL and a chance to improve their own toon. You, Manny, Ark, Luna, Jan, Ricca et. al. run MC ad naseum to support their guildmates. You don't complain, you don't cry, and you rarely get any loot, in fact more often than not all you get is a repair bill but you all go week in and week out to support your guildmates. You all deserve and have earned the right to continue improving your toon as well. Supporting the guild and your guildmates is an essential part of the team but it does come with an expectation that it will be reciprocal, to say otherwise is just being dishonest. The reciprocity is not happening and the advancement has come to a screeching halt.

Here's where I may become overly critical and if so I apologize. I realize that the officers work very hard behind the scenes to deal with the administrative issues associated with the guild. I appreciate that effort and thank you BUT the administrative stuff is only half the job. Setting strategic goals and objectives and pushing us to get there is the other half. Leadership is more than scheduling raids and making sure we have enough people in our respective classes. I don't, and perhaps others have no idea what our long term goals or objectives are. What is the plan? It's great that the "officers are talking about it" but that doesn't help. We need action an we need it soon.

Maybe I'm being overly critical or perhaps my expectations are too high. From a selfish perspective I know this. It takes me a decent amount of effort to be available at 8:30 two or three nights a week. I can't believe that it's much different for everyone else. To show up on time for a raid that doesn't happen, has the wrong class mix or one that fails miserably is extremely frustrating. I love this guild and the people in it, I'd really like to see it take the step to the next level.

As for the BC, I wouldn't overestimate it's impact. It will be a brave new world with OOODLES of content. Most guilds will likely revert to what they were when everyone wasn't level 60. Guild PuG's will form and we'll run the 5/10/25 person instances. We'll just run a whole lot more of them.

**Gambit7** · 11-08-2006, 05:52 PM

Bear, as usual... you're so much better at voicing your opinion then me. Thanks for such clear-cut posts.

**Vondoom** · 11-08-2006, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gambit7

Bear, as usual... you're so much better at voicing your opinion then me. Thanks for such clear-cut posts.

Don't belittle yourself Gambit, yours also was very strong and clear statement in defense of myself and the mage class. I couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.

"The forums are really lacking in these regards. You cant have a couple hundred people in a guild and only 10 people posting, voices dont get heard that way. Also, having more supporting members wouldnt hurt."

I read the forums everyday, before I leave for work in the morning and before I get on the game and play. I will add my 2 cents in support of those who make a strong statement of whom I whole heartedly agree with, but being one of little signifigance I will refrain from pointing fingers or critisizing anothers oppinion because I don't agree.

As for my own attendence, I was one of those who for 6 months had 90% raid attendence, has always tried to keep my DKP in the positive by passing on items when I didn't have the points earned. I felt (by my own standards) I was there not only for the guild but I had earned every piece I got. Some others did see it as that and I guess felt I was only there for myself.

Also I don't feel the mages are being protected properly with a decent healer. I guess were just pawns in this game of chess you play and that were easily expendable. My cloth armors ends up looking like rags and that is no way for the monarch of Latervia to go around. Do you realize how hard it is to get a magical robe dry cleaned nowadays?

Thus I have left the guild raids and can hold my head up with my DKP in the positive, feeling I don't owe anyone anything. If the leaders of this guild were to come to me and say "Doom can you come to BWL tonight we really need you!" not "Why aren't you in BWL?" I would gladly drop my BG que to come and help. Maybe then I would get a little reconition for the job I do. Untill then I will play on in BGs or join some of the smaller 5/10 raids who call for help when I can. Remember.....(read signature)

**Gambit7** · 11-09-2006, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vondoom

Thus I have left the guild raids and can hold my head up with my DKP in the positive, feeling I don't owe anyone anything. If the leaders of this guild were to come to me and say "Doom can you come to BWL tonight we really need you!" not "Why aren't you in BWL?" I would gladly drop my BG que to come and help. Maybe then I would get a little reconition for the job I do. Untill then I will play on in BGs or join some of the smaller 5/10 raids who call for help when I can. Remember.....(read signature)

"Why arent you in BWL?" = "Doom can you come to BWL tonight we really need you!"

I know I get caught asking that question that way, but I'm not an officer or RL so it's tough for me to tell someone we really need them, etc. hehe

Nevertheless... no one would ask why u arent there if they didnt need you. And as far as I'm concerned, everbody in the guild is needed and valuable, regardless of the strat(s) we use. I'd rather be together, happy, having fun, and altering the strat to suit us rather then the alternative.

More to that point, if we have an unfilled raid than it makes no sense why there should be 60's with nothing to do online. Fill the spots. At the very least we'll be cohesive and more experienced down the road for it. Definitely better then calling a raid before we start. Agreed?

**beep** · 11-09-2006, 12:15 AM

Ours is a voluntary system. If you want to raid, you raise your hand by signing up. If you don't want to raid, you don't. We need all interested guild members who want to raid to be as regular in attendance as your situation permits.

If anyone chooses to sit out raids, I believe that is your right and privilege to do so. We trust that each of our members is an adult who actively makes choices for what suits them. It isn't my job or anyone else's to plead for attendance beyond the usual "...need 2 more for xyz instance...".

We don't have minimum raiding requirements or mandatory attendance. If we wind up needing more raiders, then the Class Leaders will open up the classes for new members until we get enough bodies to fill the available slots.

**Vondoom** · 11-09-2006, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by beep

Ours is a voluntary system. If you want to raid, you raise your hand by signing up. If you don't want to raid, you don't. We need all interested guild members who want to raid to be as regular in attendance as your situation permits.

If anyone chooses to sit out raids, I believe that is your right and privilege to do so. We trust that each of our members is an adult who actively makes choices for what suits them. It isn't my job or anyone else's to plead for attendance beyond the usual "...need 2 more for xyz instance...".

We don't have minimum raiding requirements or mandatory attendance. If we wind up needing more raiders, then the Class Leaders will open up the classes for new members until we get enough bodies to fill the available slots.

If you had read my earlier post, thats what I was saying you should do in the first place.

If anyone chooses to sit out raids, I believe that is your right and privilege to do so. We trust that each of our members is an adult who actively makes choices for what suits them. It isn't my job or anyone else's to plead for attendance beyond the usual "...need 2 more for xyz instance...".

If that was the case then what is the purpose of this topic? All I'm saying is if you want my help ask for it. Otherwise don't bitch about not enough people joining the raid groups. Maybe there are underlying reasons not everyone is coming and the aristocrats don't bother to ask.

**Pistos** · 11-09-2006, 03:10 AM

Doom - I hope you and everyone that is reading this is taking this as a request for everyone to "come and help". I think Manny has said these exact words in various posts a number of times now. So, let me be the the first to say... well third behind Siu and Beep... sign up, come with us, help us kill stuff. This goes to all of our wonderful mages and hunters and rogues and warriors and druids and paladins and priests and warlocks.

**Tonk** · 11-09-2006, 09:30 AM

i was told people with big trucks are compensating

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