Re: Tanking problems to come?

**Dewidkat** · 12-07-2006, 05:56 PM

There is no doubt that mages dmg faster, or can, therefore patience is needed. We all need recall success is in the cooperation and balance.
Dewi

**Halten** · 12-07-2006, 06:12 PM

warriors=no rage. that's why

**Gambit7** · 12-07-2006, 06:15 PM

We cant truly test this dynamic until we get into some 40-mans. It's going to test us as a guild to be able to handle shifting tactics... i dont envy the RLs job in trying to get all 40 of us to do this. Honestly, people are going to have to knuckle-up and pay attention and exhibit some skill. Fun is fun, but it aint fun wiping.

As for us mages, arcane is the new fire in a way... my dmg output is nearly TWICE it was before the patch. Also a big test will be if "slow" will work on trash mobs, which will be a godsend if it does. Many people have flamed the "slow" ability, but I can tell you (and Uglyduck can attest to this), there's a REASON it's at the bottom of the Arcane tree. U can slow a mob over and over and just let the tanks sit there and kill it. Again, it's another tactic we have to get used to doing. In reality, it could be the most powerful ability of all the mage talents - (reduction: 50% movement, attack, AND casting speed for 15 seconds! As a cheap INSTANT)

I can now farm the elite scarlets in EPL with wreckless abandon... nearly clearing the entire castle MYSELF. (sheep one, slow another, counterspell and blow up one by one in 5 seconds each) I've casted one AM spell for nearly 5500 dmg.

So yah... we COULD have aggro issues, but the nice thing about channeled spells is u can interrupt them when things get sticky. There's no excuse really besides poor gameplay or poor spec choices... like going arcane w/o getting full arcane subtlety - DUH! Or lettin a missile barrage play out when you're 2nd on the agg list and u've critted 3 times - DUH! Overall, fire/arcane mages will as usual still have the most aggro issues... it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it as they have a bit less control over it, but all the power.

In the end, it still boils down to being able to bail out the raid with uber-dmg... there is no real negative aspect to this, just a shift in gameplay style and learning to pick your moments.

**Gaviin** · 12-07-2006, 06:30 PM

Man... seems kinda silly that Bliz buffed the mage class to such an extent.

**Gambit7** · 12-07-2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gaviin

Man... seems kinda silly that Bliz buffed the mage class to such an extent.

No it doesnt... 'cause if they didnt we'd have too much trouble in the new BC dungeons, not to mention the new places we will now be able to go RIGHT NOW like AQ40, naxx, etc. The gear wont bail us out in BC that much... and gaining lvls will take too long to benefit from talent wise.

Also, our dmg looks to increase even MORE with the added spells we get when we lvl during BC - so we're far from at the end of the dmg meter.

The whole point of this is to take advantage. Obviously using these new skills in MC is kinda dumb, as it's unnecessary. Worrying about it even dumber. How about worrying about how quickly we can clear BWL? Or how we plan to pwn the 1st boss in AQ40.

As for buffing the mage class, the only real buffs came to the Arcane Tree... which put them on the lvl with fire/ice and surpasses them to an extent. BUT, they sacrifice LOADS of mana for this... as such, that's another tactic we have to worry about and the reason I'm now shifting my focus to Intellect.

**Gaviin** · 12-07-2006, 07:39 PM

I wasn't clear...

My point was, why would they buff mages to such an extent while not taking similar actions for a lot of other classes? I don't disagree that it's a good thing and that it'll help us out.

**Kelilyse** · 12-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Ok, so we tried out Sajier's idea tonight and killed the first 2 giants in MC. I honestly (with no exageration at all) did not see any issues with holding aggro or building rage. I did, at one point, pull aggro off Tonk with only Devistate and Heroic Strike. A couple sunders, those two abilities, and a shield slam thrown in randomly, and there should be no problem holding aggro.

Just my observations... Let the debates begin!

**Arkamis** · 12-08-2006, 01:23 AM

Agreed with Kel. The aggro abilities of Devastate are obscene. In Imminent we had a problem on Vael when our second tank did three moves: heroic strike, revenge, devastate. It was bad luck, because our first tank had "miss, miss, parry, hit, glancing blow, hit" but still, it's a hell of a lot of aggro.

The move was designed to compensate for the massive increase in DPS, as well as the new threat reduction system. In short, a skilled 41-point prot tank should never be losing aggro, especially on a tauntable boss.

**caldsteven** · 12-08-2006, 08:31 AM

It could just be me, but it seems that Rogues took a MAJOR damage nerf after this recent patch, where I used to do around 1900-2400 evicerate crits, now im lucking to break 1300 (with crit).

**Tonk** · 12-08-2006, 10:01 AM

blizzard is stupid... if u t hink about it... all damage classes damage output went up on average.... 25%..... so... tank's threat output should go up the same amount too..... but no... it had been nurfed because of a slightly less rage generation

**Sajier** · 12-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Ok, notes from last nights tests:

1) Kel had no problem holding agg off of healers and most DPS (Mages have to be REALLY careful until we get a working version of KTM, because right now mages appear to be VERY dangerous, both our mages went down about halfway through killing the first giant, yes this was only 13 people, but still).

2) Renew has the ability to be a phenomenal mana saver. We tested a strat that had 1 main healer on the two tanks, and 3 priests throwing renew and wanding back the mana. I was able to easily keep the tanks up when renews were up, but right now the hardest part is telling when each priests renew drops. We are going to want to get or write a mod that will track that for us. We changed it to 1 healer per tank and 2 priests just doing renew and the two priests on renew duty were easily able to keep darn near max mana at all times and the MT healers (in a long long fight) were about at half mana when we were done with the fight. I am going to test a few things in BWL tonight, but I feel like we have some great possibilities.

3) Until KTM is fixed, DPS classes need to be FAR more careful. With no way to really track threat at the moment, if you over agg you can kill the raid. With Razorgore's Conflag or Vaels breath, it would be a fast wipe. While the massive increase of DPS is great, we have got to be very cautious, especially in transition situations. I recommend we treat everything like Ony to start, let 5 sunders get up before damage in and start slow and then crank it up.

**Gaviin** · 12-08-2006, 10:53 AM

To the issue of DPS classes and no KTM... just remember back in the olden days when we didn't have KTM. You actually had to have a "feel" for how much aggro you were pumping out. You had to pay attention to the damage numbers that you were putting up and know when you should scale it a back a bit. This is something that we're all capable of.

KTM is great, and I can't wait for a working version to show up; but in the meantime, just put a bit more concentration and care into aggro management (I'm lookin at you, casters/hunters

), and we'll be just fine.

**Sajier** · 12-08-2006, 01:00 PM

VERY good read here.

I suggest everyone take a look at it to at least get a few pointers.

**Icsist** · 12-08-2006, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sajier

VERY good read here.

I suggest everyone take a look at it to at least get a few pointers.

That is very beneficial... I think you should move it to a new post and must read..

**Arkamis** · 12-08-2006, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gaviin

To the issue of DPS classes and no KTM... just remember back in the olden days when we didn't have KTM. You actually had to have a "feel" for how much aggro you were pumping out. You had to pay attention to the damage numbers that you were putting up and know when you should scale it a back a bit. This is something that we're all capable of.

Man, I was saying this back when everyone was like WOO KTM BEST THING EVAR!

KTM = Crutch. The best and most effective way to not have issues is to have an instinct for your hate and an instinct for your tanks hate, and the only way to know this is experience. Push your bounds, and you'll know how far you can go.

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