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  • 8v8 the perfect size?

    I hear from a lot of people in this community that 8v8 is the best team size in the game. I am curious why this is and has anyone tried to adjust it since NS2 has been released? Sometimes it feels like these maps are too big for 8v8.

    -Solarity
    Lights Out!

  • #2
    Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

    In NS1. 8v8 was the number that we settled on, but we are open to other sizes if it turns out to be better for the game.

    How to do this would be an issue, but I would like to put a suggestion. After the next patch, start recording stats for a while. A week or two in 8v8, a week or two in 9v9 and so on. Look at game length and win ratio. If length tends to be longer and wins are tending to the theoretical ideal 50-50, then we might want to consider leaving it at 9v9 or even giving 10v10 a try.

    I find that longer games tend to be more fun to play in then shorter games, so long as people are trying to end it and not just playing around. All the games I enjoyed the most were around 40 or so minutes.
    Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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    • #3
      Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

      8v8 is nice because its small enough that actually choosing where to go and when is still important, but large enough that your team doesn't lose because 1 person was not in exactly the right place.

      In 6v6, splitting 4-1 vs 3-2 vs 2-2-1 makes a huge difference. The difference between having 1, 2, or 3 marines in one place completely changes the strategy.

      I view 8v8 as 6+2v6+2, where there are 2 'floaters'. It allows for experimentation, both on an individual and team level, while still not being unbalanced. 9v9+, although better balanced than in ns1, is not balanced, and IMO less fun.

      edit: This is very much dependent on the map, and some maps (i'm looking at you mineshaft) aren't even balanced for any team sizes.

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      • #4
        Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

        Originally posted by micr0c0sm View Post
        8v8 is nice because its small enough that actually choosing where to go and when is still important, but large enough that your team doesn't lose because 1 person was not in exactly the right place.

        In 6v6, splitting 4-1 vs 3-2 vs 2-2-1 makes a huge difference. The difference between having 1, 2, or 3 marines in one place completely changes the strategy.

        I view 8v8 as 6+2v6+2, where there are 2 'floaters'. It allows for experimentation, both on an individual and team level, while still not being unbalanced. 9v9+, although better balanced than in ns1, is not balanced, and IMO less fun.

        edit: This is very much dependent on the map, and some maps (i'm looking at you mineshaft) aren't even balanced for any team sizes.
        Indeed, the larger number will favor the marines, as they are not as dependent on personal res to actually win a game.

        However, the recommended (and professional) team size was always 6v6 in NS1. I think they beefed up the maps to accommodate a larger player base more than anything else.
        ~Psi~

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        • #5
          Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

          6v6 would be too small for this game imho. Keep in mind in this version 1 alien has to khamm now. Some games feel like you can't make up ground to get to that res node in time and you can only buy so many mines before risking your end game playability.
          Lights Out!

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          • #6
            Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

            If we get another server, why not experiment with it? Higher pop, more maps, crazy mods, etc etc. If we have a stable server, I see no reason to try it.
            |TG-Irr|PricelineNegotiator

            Seaman

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            • #7
              Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

              Originally posted by PricelineNegotiator View Post
              If we get another server, why not experiment with it? Higher pop, more maps, crazy mods, etc etc. If we have a stable server, I see no reason to try it.
              Priceline you do your post-game posts before going to bed too?
              Lights Out!

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              • #8
                Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                Alien egg spawning does not scale with the number of players, so on higher pop servers aliens usually have to go Shift first so they can spawn more eggs. Plus everything turns to spam tactics since 12 marines shooting a hive or 12 skulks on a chair will drop them in no time flat but it is hard to organize.

                The game is balanced around 6v6 to 10v10, 8 is a nice middle spot.
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                  I could see the value in 9v9 since it factors in the commanders and I doubt we're playing at the level where the alien comm jumps out save for the direst of circumstances. I do like the usual split of 2 in one direction and the other 5 in the other. It makes for an interesting push pull situation. NS2 at times feels like musical chairs with both sides rotating and changing bases as they take over ground in a rotary fashion. Too few players like 6v6 and you feel like your team is always putting out fires, spread too thin, etc. Too many players and one side is constantly everywhere and suddenly you're backed up into your own base unable to escape.

                  I will say this, part of the alure for me with an 8v8 situation with a map that feels a bit too large, means that I can do hit and run tactics from another side helping take down RT nodes, clean up elsewhere while the team is stuck fighting on the main front.

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                  • #10
                    Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                    Originally posted by solarity View Post
                    6v6 would be too small for this game imho. Keep in mind in this version 1 alien has to khamm now. Some games feel like you can't make up ground to get to that res node in time and you can only buy so many mines before risking your end game playability.
                    You should play some PUGs solarity, 6v6 is lots of fun on at least 1/2 the maps. Every decision is a choice that matters, has an influence. The alien comm often does not stay in the chair for most of the game. In fact usually the starting comm directs respawners to do stuff, just like on marine side in 'respawn build the OBS' except its 'respawn drop the shift'.

                    Some maps its not great for though.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                      Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                      I could see the value in 9v9 since it factors in the commanders and I doubt we're playing at the level where the alien comm jumps out save for the direst of circumstances. I do like the usual split of 2 in one direction and the other 5 in the other. It makes for an interesting push pull situation. NS2 at times feels like musical chairs with both sides rotating and changing bases as they take over ground in a rotary fashion. Too few players like 6v6 and you feel like your team is always putting out fires, spread too thin, etc. Too many players and one side is constantly everywhere and suddenly you're backed up into your own base unable to escape.

                      I will say this, part of the alure for me with an 8v8 situation with a map that feels a bit too large, means that I can do hit and run tactics from another side helping take down RT nodes, clean up elsewhere while the team is stuck fighting on the main front.
                      I love 6v6 exactly because you have to make decisions that have consequences. Strategies start to unfold, even playing the metagame which people are already starting to do (alien comms, get bile bomb first as your second hive goes up vs Wyz :) ).

                      With 8v8+ literally everything you do thats not afk is a good move...not only can it get boring but if you are trying to help your team, individual and more importantly TEAM actions are much less effective.

                      That said, I'm all for trying other game sizes and maps to see what its like. I just feel like we have barely scratched the surface of what 6v6-8v8 can be. The server is in its infancy, it only gets better from here.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                        NS1 has a much different dynamic, wasn't rez split between the alien team (fast regin for smaller teams than larger ones)? Res right now is given at .125/player/node/5secs and even more for tres. No matter how many players you have it will regin quicker than NS1 (I think).

                        Granted I have always been bias to larger populated games. Though there is some sense of satisfaction from ninja'ing a power node and basically being the reason why your team won w/o the typical slow grind to the end. On the other hand having a larger game might mean a better chance they have the node defended better.

                        Micro - I seldom go to pub servers as I usually seed ours if it is empty. Though once you go TG it is hard/painful to play at other servers. People don't work nearly as well together as they do at TG
                        Lights Out!

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                        • #13
                          Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                          Res is definitely slower than it was for NS1 aliens. The one factor that you forgot in your equation (which would have made NS2 faster, save for this fact) is that NS1 aliens also get res from kills. This is why it was entirely possible in NS1 for an alien to go lerk in the first 60 seconds of the game, and a really good skulk could have fade res in less than 3 minutes. A good 3 minute (or faster) fade would basically guarantee a win for aliens. But with NS2, no res from kills, so you're never going to see the 3 minute fade or the 60 second lerk.

                          On the matter of population, I quite like 8v8 games. I've played on some larger servers where I could read a book while waiting for respawn and I've played on smaller servers where you do have a lot of khamm hopping to maximize teeth on the field. 8v8 gives us a nice balance.

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                          • #14
                            Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                            These maps are much larger than NS1 maps were. I can see an argument for larger than 8v8, particularly as teamwork improves.

                            3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 8v8 the perfect size?

                              Originally posted by Tempus View Post
                              These maps are much larger than NS1 maps were. I can see an argument for larger than 8v8, particularly as teamwork improves.
                              Larger is a detriment to aliens. As more marines are added, the likelihood of marine victory increases exponentially. Marines are by far easier to play with a lack of personal resources. I like 8v8 right now, but I can see 12v12 or something just being pure hell.
                              ~Psi~

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