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1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

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  • 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

    If a team is so badly beaten they can't get more than one hive or comm station then I think they should have the option to redo teams. I know a base rush can be an exception, though I would like to open this up for discussion. I know the standard rule is to switch teams, but if the teams are miss-matched you can see a few people on the opposing team drop off.
    Lights Out!

  • #2
    Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

    Focus on measured, collaborative improvement during the second round. If it's so imbalanced, the second round won't last long.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

      If teams end up being -that- unbalanced (I wasn't there tonight, but I've certainly seen it happen), I usually end up going for either an obscure or joke strat in the second round. It can be fun! Go for that relocate that is risky but has a nice reward, try out stacked lifeforms (lots of lerks, gorges or onos... fade balls are a bad plan); just use it as a chance to experiment. Often, it won't work, but remember that throwing off the 'meta' tech trees can be surprisingly rewarding and can throw off even the best commanders and teams.

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      • #4
        Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

        When captains games are imbalanced, I agree with Wyz and Retraced, either try to better the commitment next round, or go for some all out tactic, even absurd. That all out grenade rush on Generator from Wyz a few weeks ago was a great example.

        If you give a "legal out" for team imbalance, it could be abused with people claiming it and giving up. I like captains games precisely because I know both teams are committed to the outcome of the game and will see it through, even if it means a loss. It's one of the big differentiators to me over our normal pub play, we're in it to play and have a complete, hopefully fun, game.

        Secondly. Captains. I know if you are signing up as a captain, you know the players' abilities well (most of the time). Try NOT to overpower your team. TBH I don't like the pick first, then pick two, because whoever gets to pick two ends up getting the top two shooters. And if that captain is a good shooter as well (which is often the case), there's an imbalance from the start.

        Any chance on the Captains plugin randomly choosing who picks first and leaving it at that? Second pick gets to choose starting team?

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        • #5
          Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

          Hm. That's possible.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

            Agreed, the pick two issue is a bit tricky to work around- that captain tends to hold all the cards so to speak (assuming joshy or another premiere player isn't on, second pick tends to get their choice of one of the top shooters -and- one of the top comms). -Edited some of this out, misread Rad's post; I'm asking for the same thing.-

            It makes the first pick a bit more interesting for both captains, as they'll have to actively choose between a commander or a good shooter (the latter of which we often have multiple of online in captains games).

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            • #7
              Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

              I guess I could go accept a crazy strat. Sometimes it is very difficult to combat a team that has a good swing going. I guess to play serious can make it frustrating if up against a team that has some impressive skill and coordination. So I might opt for a more silly or risky strat. We did have 1 rookie that listen very well and I think with a little practice he could bring a lot to this server. People listening and playing together out weighs skill.

              I do like the pick two as someone like joshy can throw off the curve. As for the question of deciding who picks first I think a /roll would be quick and easy to implement.

              I did like how balance put a lot of good people on one team to balance out joshy. We had to work together really well to overcome his skill. That game was very intense and the best game of the day yesterday.

              When it comes to picking teams, I think it is important to go for the win. If the other captain doesnt have much experience on the server I might not cherry pick. Though both capts going for the best is the best way for the keep both teams honest and balance. The only thing is a skilled capt vs a less skilled capt might affect the game. This is a good point. Maybe having two good comms be capts or have regs step up to the plate more often might help.

              One note is I don't like the timer. It almost feels like a regular pug, just picking teams differently. Granted we use to take a lot more time to plan, but I think people have been reducing planning time by a lot,
              Lights Out!

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              • #8
                Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                One note is I don't like the timer. It almost feels like a regular pug, just picking teams differently. Granted we use to take a lot more time to plan, but I think people have been reducing planning time by a lot,
                The 5 minute timer was needed IMO. It forces the captain to take leadership in fashioning a plan and distilling roles in a timely manner. Without it, the pre-game on captains dragged on into an elaborate and over-planned game that limited flexibility to respond to changes and more often than not, just produced confusion. It was also exhausting doing captains for more than 1 full match because the pre-game took so long for both rounds. Even moreso if the initial game was a long one.
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                • #9
                  Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                  Yeah, a timer for planning is a good thing, as long as it's a reasonable length.
                  Without it, plans can drag on, and certain teams may spend 10-15 minutes debating strategy. It leads to matches where the planning phase is longer than the actual game.
                  5 minutes is a very reasonable time frame, as it allows your commander or the captain ample time to explain their strategy, as well as take questions about it. It does not give the team time to debate between 3 different strategies.

                  However, there is one issue I wasn't able to take note of last night, since we moved to round 2 so quickly, and that was whether or not this 5-minute pre-game time started immediately after round 1 ended or not. That is to say, whether or not it starts ticking down as soon as everyone heads to the RR and some players go for a break, if they come back and 5 minutes are up and they have no chance of getting into the planning.

                  As far as the topic of this thread, I believe I've made comments previously about team imbalance when being picked, but I believe that once the decision is made, everyone should try their best to work with their chosen teammates. Even if the other team is very powerful, it's usually only in the sense that they will win if you play normally, so it's an opportunity to try different strategies to try to catch them off-guard. This can work as long as your team as a whole is in communication and working well with each other. If the team is not, well, some people just don't work well with others.

                  I believe the change away from "pick-one-pick-two" might help in regards to the "pick-two" captain almost always getting an extremely powerful team.

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                  • #10
                    Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                    I don't know why my browser keeps duping my posts recently.. I'm not even hitting the button.
                    Delete, please.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                      Being on the worse team provides opportunity for personal and team growth.

                      Back in the day we'd scrim teams who were leagues above us, and focus on getting better at one or two things. Its amazing how satisfying accomplishing small tasks vs. a tougher team can be, even if your team loses overall.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                        We got pick two last night and we still were unable to put up a 2nd hive. In theory 1+4=5 and 2+3=5 if we change it around 1+3=4 and 2+4=6.

                        I did notice the lack of team work on my team, we did seem to work better towards the end of the first game. Wyz suggested I start addressing people by name etc. While that is a good suggestion, I am use to playing with certain people where coorination comes naturally. I was expecting a more cohesive match over our regular pugs. Though I can't recall anyone on my team that I really mesh with the exception of the rookie and the comms instructions.

                        I think I will obstain for voting for captains game, unless I know most of the people on the server. Lacking some core people that were in a nsl match and me spamming people who don't play all that much didn't help. I know I play 150% with certain people even if they arent the greatest players on the server, I know we will play as one unit.

                        Sometimes it is not really anyone's fault and you do everything right and you just get out played.
                        Lights Out!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                          I captained a game the other night. I can't recall who the other captain was, but I remember he was skilled. Maybe it was rad or cry... I dunno. I gave him first pick, and I chose 2. I was actually worried about the game when we started because his team looked more powerful than ours. It ended up that one of our best shooters was in the comm chair and the sheer coordination of our team overpowered their ability to kill us. It's pretty much what I've been saying in multiple threads. It doesn't matter how good the other team is at killing people. It matters how committed and coordinated a team is TOGETHER. We ended up winning both rounds. It was largely because the comm gave good orders, we ended up with a very early awesome gate location, and we controlled the map. It was hard to keep our nodes up, but our team made up for res with coordination.

                          With that being said, a level of skill is required to utilize that coordination. It takes intelligent players to work as a team efficiently. It does not take a gaggle of awesome k/d ratios to bend the game in their favor, although it does help. This game is the only game I've ever known where teamwork and coordination can trump skill. I think we're too focused on who can kill the best and not on who can support a group and follow orders the best. I'm not the best shooter, but I know Wyz would prefer me on his team over other players because he knows that if I'm not already on my way to what he's going to order me to do, I'll be there within 30 seconds of him giving me orders. THIS is what's important in this game.

                          It's bothered me for so long that people will say "Oh we don't have a good fade, we're done". I've seen teams of skulks with the right coordination and one hive take over and win against a full team of proto marines with advanced weaponry. I've seen a group of marines turn the game around against 3 hives with multiple onos, fades, and lerks. I've seen just about everything that can be seen in this game, and I can promise you that coordination and DRIVE will overwhelm aim and skill every single time.

                          Honestly, what I think would change the game dramatically in captains games is for a captain to set squad leaders. Say you have a full team of 8 on aliens. The game starts, 1 khamm, one gorge to build. Pick two guys you think will be good at in the moment coordination and set them as a squad leader and then give them a squad of 2 people. The squad leader should know when and what to attack, where to go in the event of no comm orders, when to retreat. The squad leader would be in charge of communication to the comm to cut back on chatter. I can go on down the list. Test this tactic. Be sure to assign each squad what you think is a good shooter, a good leader, and a good support guy, if they're available. I assure you that if it works even close to the way it should, you'll see that regardless of who you put in those squads, if they're executed the right way, nothing can stop them.

                          Mom
                          Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                          Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                          You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                          Forever Perplexed

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                          • #14
                            Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                            Originally posted by YerMom View Post
                            I captained a game the other night. I can't recall who the other captain was, but I remember he was skilled. Maybe it was rad or cry... I dunno. I gave him first pick, and I chose 2. I was actually worried about the game when we started because his team looked more powerful than ours. It ended up that one of our best shooters was in the comm chair and the sheer coordination of our team overpowered their ability to kill us. It's pretty much what I've been saying in multiple threads. It doesn't matter how good the other team is at killing people. It matters how committed and coordinated a team is TOGETHER. We ended up winning both rounds. It was largely because the comm gave good orders, we ended up with a very early awesome gate location, and we controlled the map. It was hard to keep our nodes up, but our team made up for res with coordination.

                            With that being said, a level of skill is required to utilize that coordination. It takes intelligent players to work as a team efficiently. It does not take a gaggle of awesome k/d ratios to bend the game in their favor, although it does help. This game is the only game I've ever known where teamwork and coordination can trump skill. I think we're too focused on who can kill the best and not on who can support a group and follow orders the best. I'm not the best shooter, but I know Wyz would prefer me on his team over other players because he knows that if I'm not already on my way to what he's going to order me to do, I'll be there within 30 seconds of him giving me orders. THIS is what's important in this game.

                            It's bothered me for so long that people will say "Oh we don't have a good fade, we're done". I've seen teams of skulks with the right coordination and one hive take over and win against a full team of proto marines with advanced weaponry. I've seen a group of marines turn the game around against 3 hives with multiple onos, fades, and lerks. I've seen just about everything that can be seen in this game, and I can promise you that coordination and DRIVE will overwhelm aim and skill every single time.

                            Honestly, what I think would change the game dramatically in captains games is for a captain to set squad leaders. Say you have a full team of 8 on aliens. The game starts, 1 khamm, one gorge to build. Pick two guys you think will be good at in the moment coordination and set them as a squad leader and then give them a squad of 2 people. The squad leader should know when and what to attack, where to go in the event of no comm orders, when to retreat. The squad leader would be in charge of communication to the comm to cut back on chatter. I can go on down the list. Test this tactic. Be sure to assign each squad what you think is a good shooter, a good leader, and a good support guy, if they're available. I assure you that if it works even close to the way it should, you'll see that regardless of who you put in those squads, if they're executed the right way, nothing can stop them.

                            Mom
                            I like this idea, maybe we could use the TG team speak for the squad talk and each squad go to a different channel. We still need voice comm for squad communication. Granted this is great in theory as people tend to bug off into their own world after the plans have gone our the window. I want to try this now.

                            Wyz think we can get some TS NS2 channels?
                            Lights Out!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 1 Hive/Comm Station rule for Captains game?

                              I'll find out.

                              For now, I'd only consider this fancypants comm setup for our passworded Captains Night (perhaps we'd give out server password only to those on TeamSpeak server).
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment

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