Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Exploiting on the server!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Exploiting on the server!

    Maps and games are not perfect on ns2_docking an alien comm on the other team was dropping whips in locker room using a cyst creep that was growing through the other side of the wall. This exploitation of the game mechanics. Just because I knew how to run while cloaked in the early release didn't mean I would use it in game as it was an exploit. I also see people welding the power node through the wall on tram, which is also a exploit of the game play.

    -Solarity
    Lights Out!

  • #2
    Re: Exploiting on the server!

    I'm sorry this upset you so tonight. I'll press the admins to judge this one swiftly for you/us. I feel quite differently from you about the technique (see below), but that's not so important.

    If the admins can agree it's worth adding a rule, I'll do so. Firm direction/hopes/plans from the game devs would play a part, if anyone can get that to me (or any other admin).

    I've long-since accepted this as an ability of the cyst (infesting through walls, as long as the adjacent room has floors of the same height). I regularly use this on many (all the?) maps and have for as long as I can remember (so long, surely, that I'm surprised you've not objected before now). And I long ago observed its influence sufficiently manageable for me when on the receiving end of the technique.

    But balance needn't dictate our tolerance. Natural Selection's gameplay ever-provides ample opportunities for the very kind of explicit administrative governance I've tried to minimize w/ NS2 (NS1 forced us to burden regulars with a variable litany of niche rules in response to more severe exploits), as this title has always provided ample opportunities to apply real-world entitlements and expectations to alien creations, "nano"-stuff, and other unprecedented "realities" before ever considering gameplay effects.

    I'll post the admin decision here soon.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Exploiting on the server!

      The admins have discussed this as objectively as we could, and we've decided it's allowed.

      UWE says it's a bug. The admins don't see any compelling argument that it's a crutch. Planned design or not, we find it natural enough that a cyst would infest through a wall. We agreed that a plethora of whips was the noteworthy unforeseen, and the expense, planning, and timing required by the aliens executing it allowed the marines ample opportunity to counter. We did not place this in the ranks of building outside the map, using unresearched upgrades, doubling movement speed, or other similarly unbelievable "exploits".

      If/when we find more threat in this "defect", to either believability or balance, we'll certainly re-evaluate.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Exploiting on the server!

        Understandable decision, I suppose, when looking at it in hindsight.

        Considering I was the marine comm in the game that spawned this thread, I will definitely adapt my marine commanding to take this into account.

        I'm sure many people have heard me say, forget about X, let's just kill the last hive/cc and end this as a comm and field player so I don't know how to word this without sounding like a jerk. But I apologize in advance to any alien teams that feel as if I'm (as a marine comm) letting a game draw out rather than rush to finish it because I really felt like I let my team down in that one.
        aka Roland tHTG

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Exploiting on the server!

          If it is a bug it's technically an exploit, but it's not such a huge one that is cause for cries of foul play, though.

          In my opinion, pulling off a successful whip attack on a power node through the wall requires several things to be going for the alien commander, and it can be easily shut down by any number of ways.

          1) Any marine traffic will be able to see the cyst infestation creeping in under the wall. This is not the sudden infestation of a contaminate that catches all the marines by surprise, but a slow, creeping one. Unless absolutely no marines ever go near the area, someone should always spot this and check it out. If, however, it is the case that no one ever walked by to scout the base, then you rightly deserve to lose said base anyway because who knows what was happening near there - gorge tunnel, alien team preparing a coordinated push, etc. If a marine does in fact spot the infestation, it's a simple matter of walking behind the wall, and killing the cyst. Otherwise, let the commander know about the attempt to cyst behind your base.

          2) I would imagine for any semi-secure marine base, there would be at least one observatory. The Obs should cover critical areas around the base to reveal incoming hostiles before they arrive, to give early warning for an attack and time to beacon. Similarly, this would reveal cysts nearby as red dots. Any marine or commander can see this on their map, unless the team either never checks their map, or collectively decides to ignore red dots outside their base. Again, it's a simple matter of killing said cyst.

          The alien commander may attempt to replace the cyst over and over, which would tie up one marine killing it over and over, but if this is the case, the marine commander can do two things: build a sentry to kill cysts for you, or build an ARC and park them nearby in preparation for some alien buildings being placed on that infestation.

          In my eyes, the alien commander must be able to evade all of these "points of failure" in order to successfully whip rush using a manual cyst network. In most games, I wouldn't even recommend doing this if contaminate is available, since it's so easily countered.

          Edit:
          I should point out that I have once myself managed to take out locker room power with whips before the new contaminate stuff, and it required more maneuvering, but still having to clear the obstacles I just laid out.
          I built a cyst network from Generator out through Ballcourt, and from there, carefully used the range of the cysts to build a network into Locker Room such that the cysts would be hidden from direct line of sight of marines - corner of Ball Court, far end of the connecting passageway, corner of the doorway, and the final cyst right up next to the locker that is near the power node.

          Even if the cysts were hidden, though, any marine or obs would have picked them up. However, no one ever did go to check out locker room, and my cysts were left alone and matured. (They had sentries in the same room, which is why I stuck my cyst behind the locker.)
          Once the infestation spread to an acceptable level, I echo'd in several whips which took out the power, and cleared everything else from locker very quickly. It's a slightly different scenario, but the point is that even with a cyst IN their base, the marines never sent anyone over to scout, so they deserved to lose that base.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Exploiting on the server!

            It's odd to me that things like dropping meds on hives to determine starting location and armoury blocking seem to be discouraged (or at best, reluctantly accepted) on the server, yet this is totally fine.

            For the record, while I agree with someone from the thread Wyz linked in thinking that the cysting through walls + whip echo is incredibly BM (locker is theoretically easy to prevent, but there are many other locations like nanogrid where securing and patrolling all of the surrounding walls is ridiculous to expect in any moderately evenly matched game), I am... okay with it being used. I just think that it's more of an issue than the "exploits" mentioned above, which more than one admin has negatively commented on.

            Edit: Thinking about this, I might be less okay with it than I thought.

            The thing is, right now, it's pretty rare for this to be used by commanders. If it is known that the practice is totally okay, I'm just afraid that it's going to become increasingly popular.

            Keep in mind that in many cases, alien commanders will have a shift and shift hive as a natural result of gameplay/the tech tree progression. Using this strategy really only costs them the 1 res per cyst (negligible), and if they see that the cysts are being ignored, -only then- do they need to invest extra money into whips and echo (and possibly time if they want to wait for them to mature). On the other hand, if this becomes commonplace, marines need to immediately react to the alien commander's cysts, force at least one marine to patrol the area (the burden of which is very easy to underestimate until you consider how little effort it takes for the alien commander to execute) and potentially invest in not only an obs but also a nearby robo factory (to minimize the risk of long distance arc travel), upgrading it to an arc factory, and pumping out at least two arcs. If aliens are remotely competent about biting marine res, that likely means that at least one upgrade or the advanced armory will be denied for 3-5+ minutes.

            Again, in a remotely even game the ability for the initial investment of a handful of cysts (realistically, 5 res tops) to force the marine tech tree/field player dedication to veer off in such a manner just seems like a pretty big thing to overlook to me.
            Last edited by Retraced; 10-23-2013, 02:24 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Exploiting on the server!

              Well the thing to remember when we made this decision is that TG is a pub. Being that this is a pub, bringing any kind of competitive nomenclature such as what happens in competitive matches is moot; captain's games may be the closest example but being that our server is 8v8 and not 6v6 like matches gives the marines more scouting opportunity to cover said map.

              Any well defended base by marines, such as nano on veil, should have some type of early warning system; such as an observatory, mines, or sentries. If predicated on the fact that a marine team might not be as watchful as they should be, these early warning defenses will easily let an aware marine commander know when alien infestation is too close for comfort through aggressive cysting. Given that the infestation is clearly visible to either a marine commander through the overhead display, first person marine view, or through the HUD mini map in red blip cysts, any aware team should be able to counter said cysting by the alien team. Even the infestation itself will give the marine commander a "building is under attack" message when the armor starts to deteriorate on a building located in the infestation. A smart marine commander would know where to place buildings in a room so that even infestation creeping through a wall would not give a whip enough range to do any damage to buildings; another note, I'm not aware of any standard map, with the exception of tram (Shipping), where a tech point power node is easily accessible through wall transient infestation.

              If a marine commander or team allows infestation to occur long enough that it is able to permeate through a wall without dealing with said infestation and the alien commander is able to echo in enough whips to cause some damage, the marines deserve to lose that base. The reason is it rarely an issue, if you would even call it that, on our server is because our community is full of aware players and usually the server is full enough of players to cover any given map to prevent such tactics.

              With regards to your comments about health packs on hives or armory blocking, I am unaware of such discouragement by the admins. Armory blocking is commonplace in competitive match play though I am unsure about health packs on hives.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Exploiting on the server!

                Not going to contribute much here but I will say this:

                Now I don't command all that much but... Last I remember observatories do not pick up cysts passively.
                forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2161275/#Comment_2161275
                (cant actually link because the filter still hates me)


                Also, most comp maps are NSL specific versions which enforce cross spawns, dropping medpacks (on a side not abbreviating this to the first 3 letters and an "s" also triggers the filter, who knew?) to determine hive spots is more or less moot.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Exploiting on the server!

                  Originally posted by miragezors View Post
                  Well the thing to remember when we made this decision is that TG is a pub. Being that this is a pub, bringing any kind of competitive nomenclature such as what happens in competitive matches is moot;
                  Very, very strongly disagree there and don't see how that conclusion could possibly be reached. 6v6 and 8v8 are certainly different even without player skill being taken into account, but there is a huge amount of overlap in terms of strategies, flow of gameplay/map awareness concerns, and of course resource and tech tree costs. Your last two sentences conflict with this as well, if what happens in competitive matches is moot.

                  That said, I respect the decision by the admins, and it seems there isn't very much point trying to argue the point further here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Exploiting on the server!

                    My first and last statements were made merely to point out that our decisions for the servers aren't solely based upon the rules based in competitive matches and that they reflect the collective agreement of the TG leadership. Certain aspects of competitive play could influence our decisions and policies on the servers, but they are not the sole basis for them. Specifically my last statement was made because certain other entities may discourage such play, I am not aware of any policies mentioned specifically above that would discourage them on our servers, that certain behaviors may be allowed on TG servers versus not being allowed on other servers.

                    Our stance is based on the fact that infestation through walls is still clearly visible through different means and can be countered through current marine tactics, weapons, and abilities. If the infestation were invisible and buildings could still be placed on said infestation, we'd be having an entirely different discussion about whether this was an "exploit" that damages gameplay on the server. Seeing that it doesn't entirely change how the game is played by giving one side an unfair and distinct advantage over the other, we feel that in its current state the mechanic will be allowed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Exploiting on the server!

                      Would it be considered an exploit if a MAC could build a turret through the wall?

                      Because, in essence, we're talking about the same thing.

                      I remember in NS1 there used to be a map where you could get outside the map and build Gorge stuff out there. You could just ignore them and kill the hive, but it proved to be a distraction that was irresistible. I think this is okay, imho, if it's used in a tactical manner. I do not think it's okay if it's being used in a strictly disruptive manner. There's something about things like this that have a profound ability to cause players to completely lose focus on the rest of the game and develop an almost inhuman determination on attacking the exploit.

                      Mom
                      Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                      Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                      You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                      Forever Perplexed

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Exploiting on the server!

                        I'm not aware of such an ability for macs to build through walls. Can you provide an instance where this has happened? If it was possible, I'd imagine we wouldn't allow it as building the power node through the observation wall in tram is considered an exploit.

                        I don't see how you can compare a mac building though a wall and normal building/echoing of alien buildings on visible infestation; the mechanics are completely different.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Exploiting on the server!

                          Not especially.

                          I should have been more concise.

                          Assume the power in X room is spilling over into X hive due to a bug in the map (this being the same thing as a cyst spilling infestation into a room thru a wall).. and the MAC is in X room building turrets or a PG in X hive. Is that an exploit?

                          It's the same concept because Alien structures build themselves... which is illustrated as the MAC building thru the wall (to be clear, I am not arguing the mac building thru the wall, but the ability for the MAC to even build in X room.. building thru the wall with a MAC is, in essence, the same thing as dropping structures in X room with creep from cyst in Y room on other side of the wall because Alien structures build themselves slowly). I suppose one might make the argument that the MAC would have to be in the same room or it would be an exploit, but the point is that if the tables were turned and the Alien structures didn't build themselves, the Drifter would have to be in the room with X structure and this may be looked at less as an exploit and, in turn, be more acceptable.

                          And to that point, even if the MAC was in the same room as the structure, but the structure being built was powered by power in another room spilling thru the wall... would we consider that an exploit? It's the same concept. Any argument that may be made about a Marine PG being more game-changing in this situation is moot because 5 whips being echo'd is just as game changing.

                          Mom
                          Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                          Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                          You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                          Forever Perplexed

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Exploiting on the server!

                            I'm not sure I solely grasp your analogy of power versus infestation. Power nodes are reachable by any life form and also only work within a certain confined area. To say that a mac activates the power node in an adjacent room and then constructs a building isn't game changing at all; quite the opposite, its exactly how the devs designed the power node mechanic with in the game. This would be no different then aliens leaving a power node enabled in their base and a marine/mac building a phase gate in the same room or adjacent room; how is that an exploit? The aliens should be taking down any powered node they see to prevent such activity by the marines.

                            Keep in mind also that there are dead areas on some maps where even though you can construct a building, the normal power doesn't reach that area. The only real way to power that said building is for the commander to remote power the building ever few seconds through the robotics factory ability (aliens have the equivalent through the contaminate ability); but even that is perfectly allowed as it is in keeping with the design of how powered buildings work.

                            Now if the mac was building a power node or building THROUGH a wall, that would be considered an exploit.

                            I'm still not sure how you can compare a PG and 5 echoed whips as both require either power to said structure or valid infestation to echo; plus whips have their limited attack range and are only as deadly as their infestation's relation relative to building placement. Both tactics would require some type of planning by a commander as even if a PG was placed in a non-powered spot, the robotics factory ability would easily power said PG; echoing of 5 whips is a costly strategy and usually any logical commander would do so in an instance that was advantageous to the outcome of the game because they risk losing a lot of resources if the contamination isn't available which is why the majority of echo whip rushes are done using contamination.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Exploiting on the server!

                              Is it 1) believeable?

                              It it 2) balanceable?

                              When answering that first question, TG has long looked to Earth and its realities for guidance. In a fictional context, the first answer becomes a very subjective one.

                              When answering that second question, how much data are you going on? Without much data, the second answer becomes a fairly risky one.

                              The admins have decided it's believable and balanceable. Accepting some will disagree, and we might even be "wrong", we've in good faith done our best with context and data as we see them. Take Retraced wisdom: there's not much point in further discussing this now. If you can manage it, try to find closure in this thread's few remaining hypothetical scenarios.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X