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Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

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  • Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

    I don't know how to tell players not on the full server that a Captains Game is currently being played. When a Captains Game is being played, you can't bump anyone, no matter what.

    Do you want me to:

    A ) change the server: let "P>" regulars connect unconditionally to the full server when a Captains Game is in progress, so that they can discover after joining that a Captains Game is in progress (can't join a team -- might be able to spec, if a slot is open)

    or

    B ) leave the server as is: when a Captains Game is in progress, you're unconditionally denied connection to the full server w/ no indication that Captains Game is the cause
    13
    A
    76.92%
    10
    B
    23.08%
    3

    The poll is expired.

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    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

    Voted for A. Would rather give people a chance to spectate, or fill open slots, rather than be turned away. Possible to boost available spectate slots while captains games are active, as performance allows?
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    • #3
      Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

      As performance allows, they'll be boosted for all games.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

        How does sh_fullspec play into this?


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        • #5
          Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

          I'd like to be able to join if there is a spectate slot open, usually I go to join on captains night and cant even get in to spec and wait for the next set of games.

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          • #6
            Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

            Perhaps we should allow connections until ALL slots are filled (spec slots as well) and pursue a path of remote spectating via a bot like in the NS1 days... if this is even possible. I'd assume we could have a bot in server that streams to twitch or something of the sort and allow people to spec in this manner. May not be perfect, but it's better than leaving 10 people completely out of the loop.

            Mom
            Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
            Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

            You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
            Forever Perplexed

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            • #7
              Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

              Automated streaming is not possible. If we care to speculate otherwise, let's do that in another thread.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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              • #8
                Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                Ah. Shows what I know about streaming.

                I would like clarity on this:

                A ) change the server: let "P>" regulars connect unconditionally to the full server when a Captains Game is in progress, so that they can discover after joining that a Captains Game is in progress (can't join a team -- might be able to spec, if a slot is open)
                Am I to assume this means until the server is at 24 players AND 4 specs? Could you explain the numbers there?

                Mom
                Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                Forever Perplexed

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                  sh_fullspec is available to all players, Strangers or not, during any game. It allows you to connect to the full server if there's a spec slot available despite your not being able to bump anyone.

                  crimmy, sh_fullspec solves your need to join a full Captains Game if there's a spec slot available. It's available on the server now and must be executed when you're on the server (to clear the way for the next time you try to connect to the full server when you can't bump anyone).

                  tully, sh_fullspec isn't changing, regardless of what we do here.

                  If you're opted into sh_fullspec today (w/ mod already active now on the server), and the server won't let you connect, you've got some confidence that you're not able to play /or/ spec, whether it's Captains Game or not.

                  The change being discussed in this thread is arguably unnecessary if all of the regulars opt-in to sh_fullspec (100% opt-in won't happen, of course). The change I proposed in OP was unconditional connection to the full server, only for regulars (would NOT require opt-in -- would NOT have an opt-OUT) during Captains Games, regardless of spec slots. It creates the potential for your being on the server and unable to leave the Ready Room (which means you'll soon be removed from the server).

                  The change being discussed in this thread would allow everyone, sh_fullspec'd or not, to unconditionally connect to the full server, spec slots or not, so that they can discover with certainty that Captains Game is the reason they're not able to bump anyone from a team. This change sounds unnecessary if you're well-versed in sh_fullspec, but it might not seem so unnecessary for those less familiar with all of their options as a regular.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                    Originally posted by YerMom View Post
                    I would like clarity on this:

                    Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                    A ) change the server: let "P>" regulars connect unconditionally to the full server when a Captains Game is in progress, so that they can discover after joining that a Captains Game is in progress (can't join a team -- might be able to spec, if a slot is open)
                    Am I to assume this means until the server is at 24 players AND 4 specs? Could you explain the numbers there?
                    Well, we allow 8v8 (16 players). And we allow 4 spectators (was 3 -- might be more in the future -- changes to protect reliable server performance). And the server has 24 physical slots.

                    Normally, the server allows anyone/everyone to connect to the full server only if there's a gameplay slot available.

                    sh_fullspec lets anyone/everyone opt-in to a change which allows connections to the full server when ONLY a spectator slot is available (no gameplay slot available).

                    Change being discussed here lets "P>" regulars (NOT strangers) get treated ALL THE TIME (no opt-in, or out) such that, when Captains Mode is enabled, ALL connection attempts are allowed, so that you can get on the server and see that the Captains Game is happening. And it's to protect regulars from the alternative: OMG BBQ WHY CAN'T I JOIN, BECAUSE I SEE PEOPLE ON THE SERVER I'M NORMALLY ABLE TO BUMP?!
                    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                      Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
                      sh_fullspec is available to all players, Strangers or not, during any game. It allows you to connect to the full server if there's a spec slot available despite your not being able to bump anyone.

                      crimmy, sh_fullspec solves your need to join a full Captains Game if there's a spec slot available. It's available on the server now and must be executed when you're on the server (to clear the way for the next time you try to connect to the full server when you can't bump anyone).
                      Oh got it, I haven't tried to connect to a TG server outside of captains nights (bad internet, mostly just commanding/playing support on west coast servers) i'll try to remember to do that so I can at least spec this coming Friday.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                        I say A, because, If someone has to leave, then someone else can quickly take the spot. If you have B in place, you are discouraging people to join the server, which means less subs.
                        HaX^

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                        • #13
                          Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                          Well, someone unable to join a team and unable to join spec will eventually (after about a minute) be swept from the server by an automated process (to prevent all physical slots from filling, which prevents others from even /trying/ to join).
                          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                            I voted "B" and seems I am currently in the minority, but I will explain my reasoning.

                            B ) leave the server as is: when a Captains Game is in progress, you're unconditionally denied connection to the full server w/ no indication that Captains Game is the cause
                            This keeps our status quo: It upholds the idea that anyone who wished to play Captain's, stranger or otherwise, were guaranteed to be able to stay and play for the duration of the match if they were among the first 16 to opt-in.
                            It also prevents anyone from joining in to boot players off their teams. Unfortunately, as we discovered in another thread, we are unable to make visible to incoming players /before/ they connect, that a Captain's game is in progress.

                            This proposed change would allow all P's to join into the server, regardless of slot availability in either the teams OR spectator.
                            This in effect results in messing with a P's expectations:
                            1) If they have NOT opted-in to sh_fullspec, they expect that being allowed entry enables them to play. They join, to find out that a Captain's game is in progress, and their time was wasted in loading.
                            2) If they HAVE opted in to sh_fullspec, they have no expectation of playing, but expect to be able to spectate. They now arrive to find that possibly BOTH teams /and/ spec are full, and are stuck.

                            In my opinion, sh_fullspec already accomplishes what this strives to do.
                            While reserved slot logic is effectively disabled during Captain's games, insofar as players may not be bumped off teams, it is similar to a full server of SM's. People expect then (regardless of whether or not they are playing a Captain's game) they being allowed entry means there is somewhere to put them, and being denied entry means there is nowhere to put them.

                            sh_fullspec already bypasses this by setting the expectation to /spectate/ and not /play/ where if you are allowed entry you can be reasonably confident about getting to spectate at least, if not play.
                            (Note: Due to technical reasons, this may not always be the case for either group, because in-progress connections are ignored, or something to that effect.)

                            At best, I can only think of cloning sh_fullspec to a command that is active only during Captain's games, where it waives your right to have the expectation of being able to play, in exchange for the expectation of being able to spectate. It will only allow a player to connect during a Captain's game if there is still a spec slot available. In this case, it bears no real difference from sh_fullspec, with the exception that the player will continue to run into normal slot reservation logic -- denied entry on regular, full server -- until such a time when Captain's mode is enabled.
                            This, in itself, can cause problems because it's more commands, and seemingly the exact same command as one that already exists, but used conditionally.

                            Now, the other side of my argument:
                            So far, I've focused on the /player experience/ - that is, how such changes affect incoming players, their interaction with the server, and their expectations.
                            The other side is arguably /more/ important -- the server.

                            When a Captain's game is in progress, there will be 16 players on teams.
                            Spectate is currently limited to 4 slots. That is now 20 players on the server, and despite the argument that spectators should consume less resources then an active player, they still /are/ players on the server that need to consume resources. As I recall, the spectate slots are set in accordance to what we feel is the limit of the server handling everyone smoothly.
                            With the proposed change, you may have players entering the RR with nowhere to go, thereby artificially inflating the server population upwards to 24 more frequently. This, in turn, can negatively impact server performance for the game in progress, resulting in /no one/ having fun. The RR should be regularly swept every minute or so, which means the players who arrive with nowhere to go, are essentially sitting in the RR, possibly reducing server performance for upwards of a minute, without having a chance to really /do/ anything. In addition, as players are swept off, there may also be a steady stream of them entering the server to replace them, extending the cycle.

                            To counter two points raised in the thread so far:
                            1) Spectate bot.
                            Maybe try my Twitch stream? :P (Shameless plug, I know, but this only works for the scheduled games usually.)
                            Sarcasm aside, part of the reasoning behind my initiative (a.k.a. the secret plan that Wyz didn't know about) is to get more TG regulars into streaming, so that there will be more people to spectate /through/ during those times where we want to watch, but cannot get into the server. UWE/NS2 does not have HLTV - this is a fact. That means the only way of watching these games externally is, unfortunately, through a streamer.

                            2) Players can hop in onto the team as players drop out.
                            Arguably, the spectate pool is the "reserve pool" for this purpose, if you are sitting in spectate, you can hop out to join a team in a pinch.
                            Even if you had multiple players sitting in the RR waiting for a spot, typically teammates don't leave the game en mass, and only one player or so would make it onto the team.
                            Between rounds however, is when players usually drop out and teams need reinforcement. During this time, they may draw on the pool of spectators, or regulars can join at that time normally because the server would no longer be "full."

                            Admittedly, having replacements already in the RR helps move this process along much more quickly, but you have to deal with all the above issues, plus possible negative server performance impact for this one scenario.
                            The other possible scenario is where a player crashes, or disconnects unexpectedly. Other players have no way of knowing why someone disconnects in the middle of a round, unless it was explicitly announced, and as it stands, someone from spec may take his spot, or someone can connect at that moment and take his spot. The person who crashed out or whatnot would now find that they are unable to rejoin the server to reclaim their position without messaging someone on the team. In this case, the player can reconnect, and ask whoever took their spot to return it to them.

                            Still, that's two positive scenarios among quite a few possible negative scenarios.
                            The question now becomes, is the overall effect a net positive, or a net negative?
                            I personally don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Regulars: unconditional LOADING so you can know a Captains Game is being played?

                              Originally posted by DarkScythe View Post
                              I personally don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives.
                              Concur, atm. I think sh_fullspec solves the regular's "I want to connect to spec games I can't play in atm" problem.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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