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  • No Concede Mod

    Purely as an experiment, could we develop a mod that disables concede? Maybe make it a part of captain's? It might be a bit controversial, but it could end up being a lot of fun and instead of people just quitting, it'll force them to stick it out, possibly for some better games. I don't really see any reasons why not to try it.

  • #2
    Re: No Concede Mod

    Conceding is a part of any RTS, for better or for worse. I agree that socially, giving up on games early has been an issue lately (along with calling out "stacks"), but disabling concede would only draw out the worst part of the game-- the point where it legitimately is over and the winning team isn't yet at the point of ending it.

    If anything, I'd be more interested in captains-mode (or captain's night) concede being more like in competitive play, where it is essentially the Commander who calls gg and no one else. Keeps the team focused on the goal instead of on whether or not the game is in fact over (although that would only work during captains games, as I would feel uncomfortable giving strangers that kind of power, similar to the no-ip recycle rule).

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    • #3
      Re: No Concede Mod

      I'd need a compelling argument that the following isn't true:

      When you force people to keep playing against their will, departure becomes the path of least resistance.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: No Concede Mod

        The only-capt-can-concede option sounds interesting.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Re: No Concede Mod

          Captains mod is already smart enough to allow anyone to ready in the absence of a Captain (disconnect, etc). If we like the only-capt-can-concede idea, the mod could be smart enough to still allow the democratic concede in the absence of a Captain.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: No Concede Mod

            Yea I don't much like the idea of no-concede for regular games (would have to be some very loud "no f4-ing" posters stuck all over the ready room), but the idea of a captain-only concede option sounds good to me.

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            • #7
              Re: No Concede Mod

              Not having a concede function will lead to much more F4'ing among strangers, or having players just leave the server entirely. A happy medium that could work:

              1) Concede votes are no longer shown publicly until a certain threshold is met. For example:

              "You have voted to concede. Your vote is hidden until more of the team votes for conceding".

              2) Once they're enough votes (say 6 out of the 7 required), it will announce that 1 more vote is required.

              "Concede votes have reached 80% of the team. 1 more concede vote will end the game".

              3) The last vote goes through, win or lose activates like normal.

              This will get rid of the "morale" hit by a concede or two vote starting after a set back. Nothing stopping anybody from voicing their concerns of course, but this will reduce the casual concede vote from impacting the teams morale.

              4) If the voting is private, the concede timer will be gone. It will just be your concede vote for the whole round. That means 1 concede vote per round, per player.
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              • #8
                Re: No Concede Mod

                Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
                Not having a concede function will lead to much more F4'ing among strangers, or having players just leave the server entirely. A happy medium that could work:

                1) Concede votes are no longer shown publicly until a certain threshold is met. For example:

                "You have voted to concede. Your vote is hidden until more of the team votes for conceding".

                2) Once they're enough votes (say 6 out of the 7 required), it will announce that 1 more vote is required.

                "Concede votes have reached 80% of the team. 1 more concede vote will end the game".

                3) The last vote goes through, win or lose activates like normal.

                This will get rid of the "morale" hit by a concede or two vote starting after a set back. Nothing stopping anybody from voicing their concerns of course, but this will reduce the casual concede vote from impacting the teams morale.

                4) If the voting is private, the concede timer will be gone. It will just be your concede vote for the whole round. That means 1 concede vote per round, per player.

                I like this but also for it to show and pass the "Concede votes have reached 80% of the team. 1 more vote will end the game" either the Comm or the Captain must have voted.
                Kalost_tpf/twitch.tv

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                • #9
                  Re: No Concede Mod

                  Didn't we have a long conversation on the pros and cons of not showing who voted concede not too long ago?

                  We had a round on tram earlier where fellow marines didn't want to concede and personally I would take the path of least resistance Wyz spoke of more often if that were the norm. The TG servers are by far my favorite place to play NS2 but I'd just as soon constantly refresh the server browser trying to join a different one as sit through that every game, regardless of the side I'm on.
                  aka Roland tHTG

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                  • #10
                    Re: No Concede Mod

                    I don't think restricting the concede mod would be a good thing in anything but Captain's mod. As previously stated in another thread, we need, as a community, to stop giving up within the first 4 minutes of the game and keep a positive attitude within our team chat. I've seen far too many games where a few stubborn players ignored the complaints (and concede votes) of the majority, and turned the game around in a matter of seconds with a few coordinated and successful attacks.

                    Sadly, there is indeed some situations were the game is actually lost, and making it go any further would be a complete loss of time, so removing the option is a bad idea. We just need to get better at figuring when it's really lost and when we're simply getting it rough.

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                    • #11
                      Re: No Concede Mod

                      I like win or lose where it is. I wouldn't mind Captain's game simply changing it to remove any vote, and allow ONLY the captain to concede. It doesn't require the ratification of the team, and it's done. The team is under his/her leadership anyway.

                      However, I don't know if the programming to benefit ratio is worth it.

                      I will say I played a game a few days ago that I would have offered the concede vote to my team as khamm, as I saw us trending quickly to a loss, but instead supported the team and refrained my vote. The game turned and we began to take the upper hand. Alternatively, I expected the marines to concede, but they didn't, and played it out.

                      Both sides found it incredibly fun. I know some outcomes are "decided" by certain metrics, but the enjoyment of those games don't lessen in every case.

                      I'd like to see more people (including myself) enjoy the fight, and only concede when it's clear the other team is not advancing the game.

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                      • #12
                        Re: No Concede Mod

                        The commander is the one playing with the res flow so he should be the best one to figure out if his team is going to win or lose. However this conversation goes, i do believe the commander is the one making the call and the team should support his decision. That being said, if its obvious to the team that a win might be possible (soon to be higher lifeform or something) they they should speak up and try organizing an attack to turn the tables.

                        I know of one time jsut recently that I was calling for concede as Comm and thanks to Concussion1000, the team turned it around FTW. Thanks for that one Concussion1000!
                        Kalost_tpf/twitch.tv

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                        • #13
                          Re: No Concede Mod

                          Well, I usually fight/am stubborn whenever I am driving a point home, so I would first have to apologize for making it a pain for you. But that was great to see it turn around.

                          My thoughts at the beginning of the thread were shallow.

                          I think there is a lot to be said about conceding in NS2 and also the Win-or-Lose mod. There is obviously something more to be desired about concede. The Win-or-Lose mod is proof of this. The Win-or-Lose mod is an attempt to satisfy the "I earned the right to kill the enemy chair" while still putting a spin on the whole deal. I really really like the Win-or-Lose mod, and so do a lot of people. It's a huge step towards the perfect games that we are all driving for. Ones that don't leave the winning team with "blue balls" to kill the enemy chair.

                          There's something that can be done to improve the overall attitude of the community regarding concede and "giving up". When the concede function was introduced back in build XXX, it did seem like it brought some issues to the game. People began giving up left and right, because they were able to. I'm not sure how people coped with losing or things not going right at the beginning of the round before concede, but I don't remember it being a big issue. Some people raged, but others were quick to take their place. What I'm trying to say is that concede only made things worse from my perspective. People are looking for instant gratification and concede is instant in its gratification of ending the pain. A more effective way to produce worthwhile games would give players the incentive to stick it out. I don't think I'm clever enough to craft a method or mod to think of this myself, but TG as a community can certainly discuss what would help the overall attitude of players losing. Losing a short game where you get pounded is terrible, but losing a 90 minute long captains game isn't very bad. It was obviously a good/close game if it lasted so long! Some one has to win each game. There will always be short and painful games, but I think the key may be to find out how to reduce the amount of bad games.

                          Thoughts?

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                          • #14
                            Re: No Concede Mod

                            Whynot keep the original 10 minute timer for X > Concede and then implementing a one time early limit on the M > Surrender function. Basically each side has once chance to surrender as a team before expiring (how captains mode votes work now) prior to the 10 minute mark, after that the X > Concede and M > Surrender would be available until a full vote is reached.

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                            • #15
                              Re: No Concede Mod

                              Originally posted by miragezors View Post
                              Whynot keep the original 10 minute timer for X > Concede and then implementing a one time early limit on the M > Surrender function. Basically each side has once chance to surrender as a team before expiring (how captains mode votes work now) prior to the 10 minute mark, after that the X > Concede and M > Surrender would be available until a full vote is reached.
                              That sounds more than reasonable, but I would like to see the M > Surrender only be available after the 5 minute mark if so.
                              aka Roland tHTG

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